D&D General It's not a video game.

iserith · May 7, 2021

el-remmen said:
It seems like there are two general responses to encountering this being expressed in this thread:

1. This unconscionable cheating and such a person should be punished and/or bounced from the table.
2. Considering the reason and context (<-----this part is really important) for why this is happening and trying to determine a way to get everyone on the same page about approach to play and what is appropriate.

Personally, I prefer the second choice. It may end up leading to the first choice anyway, but I like to know motivations and figure out ways forward, if possible.

In addition to 2, I suggest making one's game resilient against foreknowledge by building adventures where knowing everything about it doesn't really affect it very much. People play my one-shots repeatedly even knowing what to expect. It doesn't really matter.

Or, as I said, creating a disincentive to relying on that knowledge by changing things and telling players you did that. For example, the post about the duergar upthread - that totally wouldn't matter to me. My players know I sometimes change monsters which means that whatever is in the Monster Manual is effectively as good as a rumor their characters heard in a tavern, which is to say unreliable at best. The smart play in all cases is to verify assumptions before acting on them. If the players are smart, they'll do that, which means they're effectively playing the same way a player without that knowledge might.

overgeeked · May 7, 2021

jmartkdr2 said:
It isn't in any other context I can think of, so pretty easy.

Spoiling the end of a book. Especially a mystery. Which is what the module should be.

jmartkdr2 said:
The fact that for video games, it's expected play. Not reading ahead is letting the team down.

As the thread title points out...

jmartkdr2 said:
I'm not even saying it's not cheating in the context of ttrpgs, I'm saying it's not universal knowledge.

Well, it is. People just refuse to not argue on the internet. Especially once they’ve put their steaming hot take in digital ink.

jmartkdr2 said:
If it's a rule of DnD, it should be in a rulebook, yes? Can you tell me which page? I might have missed it.

Case in point.

el-remmen · May 7, 2021

overgeeked said:
Well, it is.

Assuming almost anything is universal knowledge is almost always a mistake. A generous approach until you know otherwise for sure (even if you have a pretty strong suspicion) is a lot more productive, in my experience, than assuming the worst intentions from the get-go. I have found this to be the case as a DM, a teacher, a co-worker, and in personal relationships.

overgeeked · May 7, 2021

el-remmen said:
Assuming almost anything is universal knowledge is almost always a mistake. A generous approach until you know otherwise for sure (even if you have a pretty strong suspicion) is a lot more productive, in my experience, than assuming the worst intentions from the get-go. I have found this to be the case as a DM, a teacher, a co-worker, and in personal relationships.

Dammit. Poor placement on my part. The “well it is” was meant for the first quoted line. Reaffirming it is cheating. Not the universal knowledge bit.

Jaeger · May 7, 2021

jmartkdr2 said:
Where did you learn that reading ahead is cheating? And why do you assume everyone else already knows this?

Mind blown.

Reading ahead in the module you are playing in to know ahead of time where the treasure, monsters, and who the secret bad guys are ???

That's the very definition of cheating. Because it is cheating!

You are removing a great deal of the challenge and discovery of playing through the module without such knowledge.

Exactly the same as cheating in a scavenger hunt game. Telling the other players: "How is knowing where stuff is ahead of time cheating?" is the #1 way to be uninvited to all future scavenger hunts.

Guess what, those 'strategy guides' for video games - changing the name doesn't change the fact that they're 'cheat guides' telling you where everything is in the game, removing the challenge of the games exploration aspects.

A culture of cheating becoming common place and accepted is nothing less than a big fat Cultural Fail.

jmartkdr2 said:
I'm not even saying it's not cheating in the context of ttrpgs, I'm saying it's not universal knowledge.

Everyone knows what Cheating is.

And if they don't; that is a deficit of upbringing and character.

There are four types of people no one likes to be around or do things with:

Liars, Snitches, and Cheaters are three of them.

iserith · May 7, 2021

iserith said:
For some people, table rules form a sort of morality or identity ("Thou Shalt Not Metagame..."), particularly if they don't have much exposure to other groups who think differently, which is often why we see such a visceral response to other people who simply don't care about it or question the value of worrying about it.

Still got it.

Marc_C · May 7, 2021

I no longer DM modules as written and never tell the players they are playing in a module. Learned that lesson long ago (80s) when one player bought the module and read it secretly. He eventually outed himself by insisting too strongly they search a room (because he knew there was an important magic item behind a secret door) when other players just wanted to move along.

overgeeked · May 7, 2021

iserith said:
Still got it.

Except your premise is wrong. I’ve played with hundreds of people. Metagaming in this way is still cheating. Sorry you‘ve played with so many cheaters you can just shrug it off. That must suck.

jmartkdr2 · May 7, 2021

Jaeger said:
Everyone knows what Cheating is.

Cheating is breaking the rules.

If the rules are hidden, how is it morally bankrupt to break them? Calling people "deficient f character" for not knowing what you already know seems a bit pertinacious, especially if you can't state clearly why they would know it.

And if the rule isn't hidden, you shouldn't have a hard time finding it in the rulebook.

iserith · May 7, 2021

overgeeked said:
Except your premise is wrong. I’ve played with hundreds of people. Metagaming in this way is still cheating. Sorry you‘ve played with so many cheaters you can just shrug it off. That must suck.

If you read what I wrote, my premise isn't based solely on a lack of exposure to other ways of playing though. Just that it's particularly so in my experience.

I don't play with "cheaters" though. I play with people, hundreds and thousands, who may or may not utilize knowledge they have as they see fit. But that doesn't matter to me because my games are designed and run in a way that doing so has no noticeable impact on achieving the goals of play. Players could literally read the module or Monster Manual at the table if they want. Without knowing what I changed, that information is unreliable and they take an unnecessary risk in acting upon it.

Controlling how I do things is a lot easier and more productive in my view than assigning a pejorative label to people who don't play a certain way.

D&D General It's not a video game.

iserith

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overgeeked

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el-remmen

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overgeeked

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Jaeger

That someone better

iserith

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Marc_C

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overgeeked

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jmartkdr2

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iserith

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