D&D 4E Anyone playing 4e at the moment?

AbdulAlhazred · Sep 16, 2021

jdrakeh said:
No, but I kind of wish I was. I've heard a lot of praise for it since it went out of print. The problem is, I wouldn't even know where to start if I wanted to because it underwent so many rewrites during its time in print. There were, IIRC, 44 pages of errata at one point, skill challenges alone underwent many revisions, the monster maths were heavily revised at one point, and the Essentials books were er... essentially... replacements for large chunks of the core books. If I wanted to start playing today, what books would I need to pick up?

All the errata was collected in one PDF at one point. I don't know that I can share it, but the PDF I have is 139 pages and titled "UpdateCompiled.pdf" It is organized by book, and page, so its easy enough to check any specific game element for an errata. There is also a 4e database at this link which appears to be complete and up-to-date.

I'd also note that the errata, while they did make a bunch of it, is not that big a deal. You can ignore it, nothing is grotesquely broken or unworkable as-written. DMG2 and the Essentials RC have complete SC rules that work fine (the original ones actually work fine for many people too). Basically the Essentials RC is a perfectly good rules reference for all the 'core rules' and incorporates updates and changes made over the life of the game.

All 4e material works fine together also. There really are no incompatible versions of things like happened with 3.0 and 3.5, everything works with everything else. Anyway, you can use the Essentials material, and/or just the original 3 core books, there's plenty there. A lot of the books are still available easily on Amazon in print, and I guess WotC has released PDFs of at least some for sale. dndclassics.com 4e page lots here

I'm sure you can get books for cheap on other sources too, despite all the FUD 4e sold quite well and had large print runs. There's a ton of books out there.

rozgarth · Sep 16, 2021

If I were to recommend the fewest number of books for someone new to 4e to play, I’d recommend the Monster Vault for your monster book and the Dungeon Master’s Kit for your dungeon master’s guide. These are both products from the essentials line, and as such, they incorporate all of the updated rules for monsters, skill challenges, etc. The monster vault, for example, has updated stats for most of the classic monsters that were in the monster manual 1. Both products were boxed sets that also came with tokens and adventures. The DM’s Kit adventure in particular, Reavers of Harkenwold, is one of the best published adventures in the edition. I believe these products are both on DM’s Guild and are even cheaper than than their original 4e counterpart books.

Then, you just need a player’s book. This is where the 4e community can sometimes divide sharply between original 4e and essentials. Both lines are compatible with each other, and you can have parties with classes from both lines. Original 4e features AEDU design for the original classes while essentials experiments a little more with different resource ideas for each class and was designed to be more familiar to players of previous editions. Personally, I’d recommend the Player’s Handbook 1 if you’re just starting because that will let you experience 4e as originally designed and plays to the edition’s strengths. I believe there were “premium” or reprint versions that were issued during 4e’s run that included most (but not all) errata. Otherwise, the errata should be available online. If you’d prefer essentials, you want Heroes of the Fallen Lands, which includes the fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard (Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms has the ranger, Druid, paladin, and hexblade warlock).

That should be plenty to try out the game. If you like it, I’d recommend monster vault: threats to the nentir vale as a great monster book / mini setting. Monster Manual 3 would also be a great next monster book. The dungeon master’s guide 1 and 2 are amazing for advice on running the game. The rules compendium is a wonderful reference book at the table. And if you want more player stuff, I’d either get the player’s handbook 2 next (if you like classic 4e) or one of the “Heroes of…” books if you like essentials.

Finally, if you like the monster vault and DM’s kit adventures, you could consider getting Madness at Gardmore Abbey, which is widely considered one of the best (if not the best) 4e adventures. The level ranges of these adventures mostly line up so you could make a mini campaign.

Have fun!

S'mon · Sep 16, 2021

Click on links to purchase/acquire...

If you want to try 4e I'd definitely recommend 4e PHB 1 and not worrying about the 'errata', which is nearly all changes to powers & often arbitrary. The PHB is really the core rules manual and has the core magic items & rituals, not just PC classes. I would get a hardcopy PHB for table reference, they are still reasonably priced.

For monsters, Monster Vault is a lot better than MM1. I'd say get MV first, then get MM3 if you can, and/or MV:Threats to the Nentir Vale. MVTTTNV is full of low level adversaries so it maybe makes sense to get it first then get MM3 when your group nears Paragon (11th) level.

I don't have the DM's Kit, I prefer the DMG to the Rules Cyclopedia for treasure parcels. I don't think much of Skill Challenges & wouldn't worry about them. In any case the core rules are in the PHB.

You can also start with the free Keep on the Shadowfell adventure & quickstart. It's free on Drivethrurpg but WoTC actually still have it on their website! https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/H1.pdf

AbdulAlhazred · Sep 16, 2021

S'mon said:
Click on links to purchase/acquire...

If you want to try 4e I'd definitely recommend 4e PHB 1 and not worrying about the 'errata', which is nearly all changes to powers & often arbitrary. The PHB is really the core rules manual and has the core magic items & rituals, not just PC classes.

For monsters, Monster Vault is a lot better than MM1. I'd say get MV first, then get MM3 if you can, and/or MV:Threats to the Nentir Vale. MVTTTNV is full of low level adversaries so it maybe makes sense to get it first then get MM3 when your group nears Paragon (11th) level.

I don't have the DM's Kit, I prefer the DMG to the Rules Cyclopedia for treasure parcels. I don't think much of Skill Challenges & wouldn't worry about them. In any case the core rules are in the PHB.

You can also start with the free Keep on the Shadowfell adventure & quickstart. It's free on Drivethrurpg but WoTC actually still have it on their website! https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/H1.pdf

Rules compendium is just a lot more concise than either of the DMGs. They are all good books. MM3, MV, and MV:ttNV are the 3 fully updated MMs, MM1 and MM2 are pretty solid, but the later 3 books revisited a lot of monsters and made improvements that are pretty noticeable. MV is the ONE that I would have, above others, as it was intended to recapitulate the core monsters in an Essentials badged product.

The only issue with the DMG is that it simply lacks updated SC rules, and SCs ROCK! You simply have to understand that an SC is kind of like a combat scenario, but you need to really push the plot forward at every toss of the dice. Never leave it at "you could try something else to get past that" or the dreaded "I just keep rolling STR to make progress!" which are NOT how they were intended to run!

I will also say, as frequently I have, that combats really are much better with the same philosophy. '3 orcs in a room' will NEVER be a good time in 4e. It just won't. It will take 45 minutes and by minute 12 the outcome is certain and its all boring from then on. Just say no. A 4e combat is, the room is on fire, the roof starts falling on round 3, and you have to make sure you get out with the book, or else you won't be able to close the demongate in the next scene unless someone is ritually sacrificed! I mean, OK, the stakes can be less world-shattering, but if stuff isn't burning, collapsing, moving, launching, or there isn't some sort of significant action going on and/or goals to achieve besides "slaughter the enemy" then the GM should PROBABLY reduce the encounter to either color, or one situation in an SC and not bother with the combat rules.

cavalier973 · Sep 17, 2021

The DM kit has the advantage of including an adventure with maps. Still, I prefer the core DM Guide. It has rules for creating your own monsters; it has a wider variety of diseases and traps; it has rules for building a random dungeon and stock it with random encounters; it has two pages in the back that portray a dungeon-floor grid that you can xerox—I mean, that you can print off from the pdf, and then take to a print shop to have laminated. Boom. Dry-erase map. It has a short, five-room, bare-bones adventure (“kobold hall”) that you can totally spice up with more traps, more monsters, more treasure...

Speaking of treasure...if you are having your players use core PHB characters, then adventurers’ vaults 1&2 might be useful. I think av2 has “party pack” items, which grant a bonus if every member is using one of the items in the set.

Garthanos · Sep 17, 2021

cavalier973 said:
The DM kit has the advantage of including an adventure with maps. Still, I prefer the core DM Guide. It has rules for creating your own monsters; it has a wider variety of diseases and traps; it has rules for building a random dungeon and stock it with random encounters; it has two pages in the back that portray a dungeon-floor grid that you can xerox—I mean, that you can print off from the pdf, and then take to a print shop to have laminated. Boom. Dry-erase map. It has a short, five-room, bare-bones adventure (“kobold hall”) that you can totally spice up with more traps, more monsters, more treasure...

Speaking of treasure...if you are having your players use core PHB characters, then adventurers’ vaults 1&2 might be useful. I think av2 has “party pack” items, which grant a bonus if every member is using one of the items in the set.

I like to take the simple treasures in the PHB and make more complex ones out of it so I didnt even think of that the PHB even mentions non-standard items the DM might throw your way which you might have to find rituals or similar to discover what they do.

roll_for_deception · Sep 17, 2021

back when we played 4e we had just the basic PH1 and PH2, we decided to not use any digital tool cause the character's creation/level up system was already overwhelming without any additional content beside the two basic player's books

if i were to play/dm a 4e campaign today just because of the combat system (it does sound like it might be a good ideia) i would just use the two main player's book again,

S'mon · Sep 17, 2021

roll_for_deception said:
back when we played 4e we had just the basic PH1 and PH2, we decided to not use any digital tool cause the character's creation/level up system was already overwhelming without any additional content beside the two basic player's books

if i were to play/dm a 4e campaign today just because of the combat system (it does sound like it might be a good ideia) i would just use the two main player's book again,

GMing 4e-with-everything currently as secondary DM (so I don't make the rules), I agree with you - I think PHB + PHB2 is probably the optimal experience, certainly if not using the charbuilder. Bringing in other sources for specialised concepts (eg a Martial Power Brawler Fighter) can work well, but I'm playing in a PHB + Essentials Only campaign online, and that works great too.

If you do want to use the charbuilder, this doc takes you through setup: https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1563/76/1563769640377.pdf
It takes about 20 minutes to do, but it does work! The Portable Compendium linked there works too and gives you all the monsters from everywhere, but sadly there seems to be no monster editor/monster slider around anymore.
This online database includes everything - 4e Database - again a great source for monsters and treasure.

cavalier973 · Sep 17, 2021

The Essentials Monster Vault has updated monsters from the core Monster Manual, and it involves more than improved math. Dragons, for instance, get two turns in the first round; a dragon rolls initiative, then adds 10 to the result—that is its first turn, and it likely will act before anyone else, and then act again on its initiative roll. All MV orcs get a free action to make a final attack when they drop to zero hit points. Little things, but can add mechanical flavor to a battle.

Garthanos · Sep 17, 2021

I think there are neat bits in a lot of places developed throughout the edition. like the Monster Vault Threats to the Nentir Vale opens up the use of Swarms in interesting ways (they are not just bugs but military units operating as a team form Orcs to Demons... heck a Phalynx of Jotun becomes a possibility for really epic context.