D&D General D&D's Evolution: Rulings, Rules, and "System Matters"

Jay Murphy1 · Sep 20, 2021

Chaosmancer said:
If the novel writing is so much more difficult, why are 16 years old and younger still doing it? The entire point was that you can't dismiss the efforts of professionals because of extraordinary young people.

Yes

Yes

I agree, even though I consider both attempts a failure, the RPG writing was vastly more difficult. In the novel I just had to tell a good story, my major downfall was motivation and trying to get the entire novel in my head at the same time, something it seems my writing is ill-suited for as I have been finding much greater success in a different format. With the RPG we had to consider many many different factors of balance, math, growth, tone, statistical averages, story, setting, historical events, ect ect. It was a massive and overwhelming project.

And? Christopher Paoloni and Gordon Korman had numerous examples of novels to use as models too. Again, do you find that writers should not be considered to have a profession just because young people made highly successful novels? Do you think that the skill level is so low that you could do better than the 16 year old who made a system that penetrated the market to a degree that you are talking about it now as a counter to Dungeon and Dragons?

I don't make a policy of downplaying the successes of others, I find it much more appropriate to celebrate those successes.

I'm saying writing a roleplaying game isn't all that difficult.

pemerton · Sep 20, 2021

Jay Murphy1 said:
I'm saying writing a roleplaying game isn't all that difficult.

Well, writing a mediocre RPG isn't that difficult. Judging by the numbers of them out there, neither is writing a mediocre novel!

Writing a good RPG is hard, I think.

Snarf Zagyg · Sep 20, 2021

Jay Murphy1 said:
I'm saying writing a roleplaying game isn't all that difficult.

It's certainly easier to argue this point on an internet forum than to spend time creating your own game!

I have always found it noticeable that there seems to be a great overlap in the circles of the Venn diagrams of those who spend a lot of time complaining about the details of published game systems, and those who believe that only official materials are worth playing.

...I kid, kind of. But there is certainly a divide between those who prefer a more ad hoc and DIY ethos, and those who prefer to run things "off the shelf."

Helpful NPC Thom · Sep 20, 2021

"Writing a roleplaying game isn't that difficult."

No, it's not. Writing a good roleplaying game is difficult, and publishing it even moreso.

Aldarc · Sep 20, 2021

Snarf Zagyg said:
It's certainly easier to argue this point on an internet forum than to spend time creating your own game!

I have always found it noticeable that there seems to be a great overlap in the circles of the Venn diagrams of those who spend a lot of time complaining about the details of published game systems, and those who believe that only official materials are worth playing.

...I kid, kind of. But there is certainly a divide between those who prefer a more ad hoc and DIY ethos, and those who prefer to run things "off the shelf."

IMHO, the DIY approach is great if you really only plan on playing with your own table. However, it creates some trouble when it comes to deriving a common language to discuss with others in the community. Some people run heavily homebrew and modified versions of various editions of D&D to the point where it's incredibly difficult to even say whether it's really the same game, which makes it difficult to discuss their game experiences. This is one reason why notions of "canon" and "official" are often an important topic for fan communities. Even if they are complaining about official rules, it's still a "language" that they share in common as part of their community.

Snarf Zagyg · Sep 20, 2021

Aldarc said:
IMHO, the DIY approach is great if you really only plan on playing with your own table. However, it creates some trouble when it comes to deriving a common language to discuss with others in the community. Some people run heavily homebrew and modified versions of various editions of D&D to the point where it's incredibly difficult to even say whether it's really the same game, which makes it difficult to discuss their game experiences. This is one reason why notions of "canon" and "official" are often an important topic for fan communities. Even if they are complaining about official rules, it's still a "language" that they share in common as part of their community.

I don't disagree with any of this. Well put.

I think that, for the most part, people talk past each other when it comes to the subject. I think that the following two things are true:

1. Creating a coherent rule set (and accompanying body of lore) that is useable to people you don't know, understandable to people you don't know, internally consistent, and fun, is a difficult task.

2. Creating a fun RPG to play with people you know is easy. Heck, kids do it all the time.

pemerton · Sep 20, 2021

Aldarc said:
IMHO, the DIY approach is great if you really only plan on playing with your own table. However, it creates some trouble when it comes to deriving a common language to discuss with others in the community.

<snip>

This is one reason why notions of "canon" and "official" are often an important topic for fan communities. Even if they are complaining about official rules, it's still a "language" that they share in common as part of their community.

I'm not really into "canon" - I don't need my fiction to be knowable in advance to other RPGers. When I've wanted to explain it to them, I've generally found myself able to do so.

My relationship with "official" is more complicated. I have no problem with introducing new game material where it is warranted - on the weekend I ran a session of Agon using the island I wrote up for "Not the Iron DM"; in my 4e D&D campaign I used plenty of game elements (eg creatures) that I made up myself; as a Rolemaster GM I authored my own systems for initiative, PC building, etc (which is practically compulsory for a serious RM GM).

But I do find quite a bit of "homebrewed" material that I encounter is not very well designed. In the context of D&D, this mostly consists in it being mathematically out-of-whack with the core game system. Or otherwise not showing a great degree of awareness of the "aesthetics" of the system. Outside of D&D, one encounters much less material "homebrewed" or otherwise, but there can also be issues there: eg in the Prince Valiant episode book there are plenty of NPCs who do not conform to the character building rules but with no obvious reason for this, and which therefore sit in tension with Greg Stafford's own advice in the core rulebook and his painstaking reconstruction of such characters as Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot and others in accordance with those rules.

There can also be material that is designed without much thought to its effect on the dynamics or experience of play. Vincent Baker tackles this directly in his advice on custom moves in Apocalypse World, and John Harper has also written about it. This particular sort of poor design can also be found in "official" material eg a lot of the 4e adventures published by WotC.

I guess the upshot is that, for me, "official" is not about having a common language; but screening material with a slightly sceptical eye is about the particular qualities of the gaming experience.

Chaosmancer · Sep 21, 2021

pemerton said:
I'm not really into "canon" - I don't need my fiction to be knowable in advance to other RPGers. When I've wanted to explain it to them, I've generally found myself able to do so.

My relationship with "official" is more complicated. I have no problem with introducing new game material where it is warranted - on the weekend I ran a session of Agon using the island I wrote up for "Not the Iron DM"; in my 4e D&D campaign I used plenty of game elements (eg creatures) that I made up myself; as a Rolemaster GM I authored my own systems for initiative, PC building, etc (which is practically compulsory for a serious RM GM).

But I do find quite a bit of "homebrewed" material that I encounter is not very well designed. In the context of D&D, this mostly consists in it being mathematically out-of-whack with the core game system. Or otherwise not showing a great degree of awareness of the "aesthetics" of the system. Outside of D&D, one encounters much less material "homebrewed" or otherwise, but there can also be issues there: eg in the Prince Valiant episode book there are plenty of NPCs who do not conform to the character building rules but with no obvious reason for this, and which therefore sit in tension with Greg Stafford's own advice in the core rulebook and his painstaking reconstruction of such characters as Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot and others in accordance with those rules.

There can also be material that is designed without much thought to its effect on the dynamics or experience of play. Vincent Baker tackles this directly in his advice on custom moves in Apocalypse World, and John Harper has also written about it. This particular sort of poor design can also be found in "official" material eg a lot of the 4e adventures published by WotC.

I guess the upshot is that, for me, "official" is not about having a common language; but screening material with a slightly sceptical eye is about the particular qualities of the gaming experience.

I think you are missing the point that was being made.

I could have a discussion with you about the canon version of Dis. We have both some idea of it. I can't have a discussion with you about "the island" because I've never encountered that material.

We could have a discussion about Action Surge. We couldn't discuss my homebrewed Icon of War ability for Fighters, because you haven't read it.

That is the point about "canon" and "official" in creating shared language. Not that such things should be considered "important" for the home game, but that they allow us to discuss between vast distances, because we have both seen that material

Jay Murphy1 · Sep 21, 2021

Example of someone writing a roleplaying game.

Jay Murphy1 · Sep 21, 2021

This one was slapped together in an evening by another person
Chaosium was just house ruled DnD with a percentile skill system and is one of the most successful game companies out there. The concept of a roleplaying game took an incredibly talented and created person to discover, but once revealed even 11 year olds get the game and run it.