D&D 5E On fairies and flying

overgeeked · Sep 23, 2021

BookTenTiger said:
Why else would you fight monsters, explore dungeons, and haul back treasure?

Because it’s fun. Because it’s a challenge. Because it’s there. Because it’s what your friends are doing. Because it lets you be creative. Because it’s a puzzle.

BookTenTiger said:
It feels cool and special.

It feels unearned. I guess I still have my head in the old-school way of gaming. It’s about the risk and the challenge and seeing if your character can survive despite the low stats and hit points. Zero to hero. PC flight seems like one more way for players to decide they don’t want the game to be challenging. One more skip button in a game festooned with skip buttons.

PC with flight didn’t earn feeling cool or special. They made a character creation choice that gave them a skip button. Like all the exploration skip buttons. I’m down with being a fan of the PC and I’m good with them feeling cool and special, I just want it to be because of something they did in game to earn it. They feel cool because they beat the really tough monster and found a magic item. They outsmarted the mastermind and earned a boon. They solved the riddle and discovered the cache of treasure. Not: “I can fly. LOL.”

Yes, there were flying PC races back in the day. And DMs now are just as free to say no, but let’s not pretend the expectations of the player base hasn’t drastically shifted over time.

billd91 · Sep 23, 2021

overgeeked said:
PC with flight didn’t earn feeling cool or special. They made a character creation choice that gave them a skip button. Like all the exploration skip buttons. I’m down with being a fan of the PC and I’m good with them feeling cool and special, I just want it to be because of something they did in game to earn it. They feel cool because they beat the really tough monster and found a magic item. They outsmarted the mastermind and earned a boon. They solved the riddle and discovered the cache of treasure. Not: “I can fly. LOL.”

Character creation is full of skip buttons of various sorts. Being able to fly just gives you somewhat different ones than others.

overgeeked said:
Yes, there were flying PC races back in the day. And DMs now are just as free to say no, but let’s not pretend the expectations of the player base hasn’t drastically shifted over time.

Player base? This strikes me more as a shift in the expectations of the DM base than player. It looks more about not disrupting 'my precious encounters' (or traps, or obstacles) than anything on the players' side of the screen.

Laurefindel · Sep 23, 2021

Paul Farquhar said:
Then don't encounter them. "You fly over the angry goats" is a better use of player time than trivially hacking them to pieces.

... which is what ends up happening, and that's not necessarily a good thing.

Look, I get it; it's unlikely that all PC get to fly (until higher levels at any case) so the encounter will probably happen anyway, and a good DM will tailor their encounters to the abilities of their PC. Also, in the Feywild specifically, or a game fit for fairies characters, things can be gonzo enough to make flight a non-issue. And while you're having a laugh at us using goats for encounters and going deerhunting with our PC, reducing the encounters to "something that can be challenging to a flying character" can be restrictive; some campaigns and playstyles are more affected by it.

Campaigns and play styles never exist separately from the PC, but PC with (abundant) flight have a bigger impact on the campaign and play style than most other races.

overgeeked · Sep 23, 2021

billd91 said:
Character creation is full of skip buttons of various sorts. Being able to fly just gives you somewhat different ones than others.

Player base? This strikes me more as a shift in the expectations of the DM base than player. It looks more about not disrupting 'my precious encounters' (or traps, or obstacles) than anything on the players' side of the screen.

So, you’re a player. When you go to make your character you want the full range of options available to you so that you can make whatever you want to play. That’s freedom of choice that you enjoy. And when the DM says no flying races, no multiclassing, no variant humans, no outlander background, no feats, or bans certain feats...it feels like your choices are restricted. Like you’ve lost some freedom of choice. Even if you weren’t going to use the stuff the DM banned, it still feels like less choice. Because it is.

But now try to use a tad bit of empathy and recognize that the DM feels exactly the same way when their choices are limited by PC choices.

And when the players object to choices being removed, I imagine the DM could make much the same argument as you have. “The players’ precious character choices.” But that’s not a great argument.

Unfortunately, this aspect of the game really is zero sum. The more choices the players have, the fewer choices the DM has. The more choices the DM has, the fewer choices the players have.

I get that, as a player, you want infinite choices and all the skip buttons, but that means exponentially more work for the DM to prepare something that will actually challenge the party. I guess you could simply not care how much work that is. But then it’s having fun at the expense of the DM rather than in collaboration with the DM. “I get to do whatever I want and the DM just has to deal with it.”

Xeviat · Sep 23, 2021

Flight makes it tough to run pre-made adventures, but not impossible.

I'm almost at the end of a level 5 through 12 campaign where I've had a flying PC the whole time. He is a melee character, which changes a lot, but I just have to consider that some things aren't challenges for the party.

He also draws aggro a lot.

billd91 · Sep 23, 2021

overgeeked said:
So, you’re a player. When you go to make your character you want the full range of options available to you so that you can make whatever you want to play. That’s freedom of choice that you enjoy. And when the DM says no flying races, no multiclassing, no variant humans, no outlander background, no feats, or bans certain feats...it feels like your choices are restricted. Like you’ve lost some freedom of choice. Even if you weren’t going to use the stuff the DM banned, it still feels like less choice. Because it is.

But now try to use a tad bit of empathy and recognize that the DM feels exactly the same way when their choices are limited by PC choices.

And when the players object to choices being removed, I imagine the DM could make much the same argument as you have. “The players’ precious character choices.” But that’s not a great argument.

Unfortunately, this aspect of the game really is zero sum. The more choices the players have, the fewer choices the DM has. The more choices the DM has, the fewer choices the players have.

I get that, as a player, you want infinite choices and all the skip buttons, but that means exponentially more work for the DM to prepare something that will actually challenge the party. I guess you could simply not care how much work that is. But then it’s having fun at the expense of the DM rather than in collaboration with the DM. “I get to do whatever I want and the DM just has to deal with it.”

Wow! That's a bad read. Considering I'm behind the DM's screen considerably more than half the time I'm playing D&D, I know quite well the cost of setting up challenges for a group of creative players. The difference is I recognize that the DM always has and will have functionally unlimited choices no matter what their PCs throw at them if they want to challenge them. The balance of power in this relationship is still in the DM's hands.
Worried that flying PCs will trivialize an obstacle? Add things/creatures to the area that can complicate the situation. Got an underground chasm you are worried that flyers may trivialize? Add cave fishers or darkmantles who can keep the situation hazardous. Lots of scouting about in the wilderness? Flyers draw attention and are relatively easy to spot. And if they do trivialize a potential encounter? So what? There are a lot of encounters in a D&D world that can be expected to be trivial - easily avoided, easily defeated, or dealt with via interaction. That I may tailor a few in a different way than I would if there were no flyers in the group isn't that big a deal. Chances are the players will do something completely unexpected anyway!

Paul Farquhar · Sep 23, 2021

Laurefindel said:
... which is what ends up happening, and that's not necessarily a good thing.

The goats get to live, and the PCs are spared a boring fight, where is the loss?

Arilyn · Sep 23, 2021

Fliers, in my experience, cause players to break the number 1 rule: Don't split up the party. Surely that causes some glee in wicked GMs' hearts.

Paul Farquhar · Sep 23, 2021

the Jester said:
"I carry everyone over one by one" is a real possibility, assuming a decent strength score. Ten minutes work in game, and poof, you're done.

Fairies are small, which means carry weight is halved, so even a strong one won't be able to carry another full size PC until they get enlarge at level 5.

They could carry a rope across, like a familiar.

ad_hoc · Sep 23, 2021

I would have liked to see more restrictions on the flight like a severe encumbrance limit.

I don't like the idea of the fairy grappling a goliath and then flying around with them with their tiny fairy wings.

It just doesn't suit the theme.

D&D 5E On fairies and flying

overgeeked

B/X Known World

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)

Laurefindel

Legend

overgeeked

B/X Known World

Xeviat

Hero

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)

Paul Farquhar

Legend

Arilyn

Hero

Paul Farquhar

Legend

ad_hoc

(they/them)

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