Level Up (A5E) Issue with maneuvers

Candour Pendragon · Oct 13, 2021

As it is written right now, you cannot replace a maneuver you know with one of a higher degree when you learn a new one. It must be the same degree.
This means that any class that doesn't learn a new maneuver the level they gain access to a higher degree has to wait additional levels until they do learn a new maneuver to be able to actually use the higher degree.

For example, the preview of the Adept class has them learn their fourth maneuver at 7th level, when their highest degree is 2nd. When they then gain access to 3rd degree maneuvers at 8th level... they cannot actually have any 3rd degree maneuvers, cause you can't replace a maneuver with one of a higher degree, and it takes until 11th level for them to actually be able to gain and use a 3rd degree maneuver.

This is a huge delay and cannot possibly be intentional... right? Like, why give the player the theoretical ability to use 3rd degree maneuvers, without actually being able to have any until three levels later? Feels like a taunt.

My suggestion for fixing this is to allow replacement of maneuvers to upgrade their degree, but set a limit for how many maneuvers of which degree a character can know at any one time, to avoid people stacking too many high-degree maneuvers.

Faolyn · Oct 13, 2021

Yeah, that sounds like a bad typo, not what they actually intended to happen. It should just read that at each level, they can switch out an existing maneuver for a new one of any degree they can use if they wish, so that at 8th level, they can switch out one of their 2nd degree maneuvers for a 3rd degree.

Mike Myler · Oct 13, 2021

Intentional, but I get how it looks awry without knowing about some of the moving parts at work.

The degrees of maneuvers you know are fixed—you get so many 1st degree maneuvers, so many 2nd degree maneuvers, and so on, and you decide how that progression plays out. Maybe it ends up looking like a Vancian magic tree, maybe it doesn't (it depends very much on your tactics) but because there are no exertion slots this can't work the same way as spells do (which is good, these are unique things for martial characters to enjoy so they ought to feel different all the way through).

Adepts gain access to 3rd degree combat maneuvers at 8th level (like fighters and marshals do), and if they want to immediately get a 3rd degree maneuver they can use their Ability Score Increase to take the Martial Scholar feat, in which case the maneuvers they choose can both be 3rd degree. The degree access for adepts can also have an impact when multiclassing.

Candour Pendragon · Oct 13, 2021

So... you're forced to take a specific feat if you want to actually get access to the maneuvers you're supposed to have at that level.
I seriously dislike that. How come some classes it lines up, and others, due to the way the numbers work out, have to wait far longer? I would not play a martial at a table which didn't houserule that. It just feels like an unfair disadvantage.

Mike Myler · Oct 13, 2021

Adepts have 35 Focus Features to choose from (gaining one at every level after 2nd) most of which relate to combat, so it's worth keeping in mind that adepts are effectively already getting something equivalent to a combat maneuver at nearly every level.
At the same time we didn't want to stop anyone who really wants to beat that combat maneuver drum from being able to do it as well as other martial classes, so the option is there for people interested in taking it.
If I were to house rule it (maybe for a Mortal Kombat style game?), I would allow the adept to learn an additional combat maneuver instead of taking a Focus Feature. For the core rules we do want to focus

on the themes of the class, so it leans into those more than combat maneuvers.

Faolyn · Oct 13, 2021

Honestly, I think making adepts wait is not a good idea, and I really think most people aren't even going to pay attention to the "of equal level" rule at all (and as a DM, I'm almost certainly not going to enforce it). I mean, what if I wanted to switch it a 2nd degree maneuver for a 1st degree one I liked better?

Steampunkette · Oct 13, 2021

Faolyn said:
Honestly, I think making adepts wait is not a good idea, and I really think most people aren't even going to pay attention to the "of equal level" rule at all (and as a DM, I'm almost certainly not going to enforce it). I mean, what if I wanted to switch it a 2nd degree maneuver for a 1st degree one I liked better?

At -my- table?

I'd homebrew a 2nd degree version that does the same thing and a little more.

Stalker0 · Oct 14, 2021

Mike Myler said:
Intentional, but I get how it looks awry without knowing about some of the moving parts at work.

The degrees of maneuvers you know are fixed—you get so many 1st degree maneuvers, so many 2nd degree maneuvers, and so on, and you decide how that progression plays out. Maybe it ends up looking like a Vancian magic tree, maybe it doesn't (it depends very much on your tactics) but because there are no exertion slots this can't work the same way as spells do (which is good, these are unique things for martial characters to enjoy so they ought to feel different all the way through).

Adepts gain access to 3rd degree combat maneuvers at 8th level (like fighters and marshals do), and if they want to immediately get a 3rd degree maneuver they can use their Ability Score Increase to take the Martial Scholar feat, in which case the maneuvers they choose can both be 3rd degree. The degree access for adepts can also have an impact when multiclassing.

I'll be honest, without you very specifically saying what you just said.... seeing it in play, I would have just assumed it was a typo, I would never believe that was "intentional".

Horwath · Oct 14, 2021

Mike Myler said:
Intentional, but I get how it looks awry without knowing about some of the moving parts at work.

The degrees of maneuvers you know are fixed—you get so many 1st degree maneuvers, so many 2nd degree maneuvers, and so on, and you decide how that progression plays out. Maybe it ends up looking like a Vancian magic tree, maybe it doesn't (it depends very much on your tactics) but because there are no exertion slots this can't work the same way as spells do (which is good, these are unique things for martial characters to enjoy so they ought to feel different all the way through).

Adepts gain access to 3rd degree combat maneuvers at 8th level (like fighters and marshals do), and if they want to immediately get a 3rd degree maneuver they can use their Ability Score Increase to take the Martial Scholar feat, in which case the maneuvers they choose can both be 3rd degree. The degree access for adepts can also have an impact when multiclassing.

intentional or not, this is bad design.

and it is the same as spellcasters get their 5th level slots at 9th level, but only getting new spells known at 11th level without ability to change existing spells. It's even worse, spellcaster can at least up-cast their existing spells known.

And "fixing" this with a "feat tax" is not any better.

Sansang · Oct 14, 2021

Horwath said:
spellcasters get their 5th level slots at 9th level, but only getting new spells known at 11th level

Are you talking about O5E or A5E? Because I double checked and, as far as I know, it's not the case in O5E, but probably I am missing something.

Mike Myler said:
Intentional, but I get how it looks awry without knowing about some of the moving parts at work.

I'm sorry but if a design is not clear at first sight "without knowing about the moving parts", than it's not clear nor usable by the average user. And on top of that, even after your explaination, it looks and sounds really horrible.