D&D 5E Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
So if I put someone on the spot and asked them to describe the inn they stayed at last night I suspect I'd get either stammering an muttering or "Oh, yeah. The king decided that the luxury suite wasn't good enough so he had me stay in the royal chambers instead. He even let me sit in judgement on a few cases, it was quite fun."

One thing I've been thinking about is that 5e is tolerant in terms of a diversity of players because of the assumed division of authority.

For example, you can have a table with an "all about the combat" player, a "beer & pretzels" player, a "hardcore RP" player, a "I'm just here because my girlfriend dragged me here" player, a "I like to map and write drown treasure" player, and so on.

There is no requirement that the players all bring a level of enthusiasm to the game at all times. It makes it better, but it still works. It's also easy to integrate new players, who don't even have to know anything in particular about the world (create fiction). You can always up the player authority over narrative, but it's never required.

Other games can be attractive and fun for tables that enjoy a cooperative and engaged playstyle, but I wonder if there is some inherent advantage to a game that allows for that specific type of diversity.

Maybe, maybe not.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Sometimes you have to say "that's it for tonight, see you next week"

And so, next week, the GM has something else prepared, and then the players have a choice to engage with that, or delay again.

The point being that a game that requires significant prep also has the issue of players needing to stick within some bounds. If you just slap a label of "railroading - bad GM" on that, you are doing the GM a disservice.
 


overgeeked

B/X Known World
I am very much against railroading, but a lot of players respond well to it.
Years of conditioning will do that. If you're not used to being allowed to make choices in an RPG it can be really hard to make one once you're finally given an opportunity to do so. And it's not like they have much of a choice besides accept it or leave the game.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
The point being that a game that requires significant prep also has the issue of players needing to stick within some bounds. If you just slap a label of "railroading - bad GM" on that, you are doing the GM a disservice.
I think there is a range that includes "railroading--bad GM" and "the players staying within some bounds." I agree they aren't the same thing. I don't think it's railroading, for example, if I have a standing request for the players in my higher-level campaign to let me know if they plan on using any of their potentially-random planar-travel items, so I can prepare the possible random results beforehand.

I have in the past ended a session when the PCs did something I hadn't anticipated, but that was mostly because they were in a place I hadn't written up enough to feel comfortable running (and I didn't want to improvise it and end up forgetting or not liking what I'd ad libbed).
 

Helpful NPC Thom

Adventurer
Years of conditioning will do that. If you're not used to being allowed to make choices in an RPG it can be really hard to make one once you're finally given an opportunity to do so. And it's not like they have much of a choice besides accept it or leave the game.
In my experience, there are plenty of players who want an on-rails experience. Some players simply lack the initiative to be proactive protagonists. Some players prefer a "cinematic experience" at the game table. Many are looking to socialize and relax after work, and they aren't that invested in player agency or making decisions. Some people just want to show up and roll some dice during combat encounters. Some new players want a session of Critical Role that they're participating in.

It's a diverse hobby with a variety of playstyles. I'm not going to denigrate someone else's good time--though, again, railroading is definitely not a good time for me, so I expect others to respect my good time.
 

Arilyn

Hero
Funny. I've seen complaints about it being too linear, and about there being things that have to happen before other things can happen. Personally, I bought the book because I was running something set in extreme cold and had heard there were useful rules bits for that in the adventure; I did not find that to be the case.
Me too. I thought I could harvest ideas, but found nothing inspiring.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
I don't love it! However, in a hexcrawl situation (eg you have a codified map with units and terrain implications where players are integrating that information into their decision-tree), I think its feasible that you can make the equivalent of a PBtA soft move whereby the Ranger can choose to deploy their ability (you won't face difficult terrain if you go this route) at the risk of facing a particular suite of consequences (but this area is ripe for mudslides, is home to a particular brand of nasty avian predators, the brutal wind constantly blows abrading scree in your face and eyes). However, they'll (a) get where they want to go more quickly and (b) not suffer issues of supply-based Exhaustion levels if they can manage the complications.

That sort of decision-point is great because it gives Ranger-led companies additional move-space in the wild that they wouldn't possess otherwise (therefore creating more interesting decision-points and strategic overhead).

But straight-up shutdown? Don't love it!
Wanna get back to this before it falls into a memory hole.

They were trying to get some linear distance from where they were, in some amount of time, but while they were making decent speed on the paths they were on, the paths they had to take through the mountains weren't straight--roads or paths in mountains almost never are, IME.

It's like ... anyone who's driven on something like Skyline Drive or the Blue Ridge Parkway or Going-to-the-Sun Road (in Glacier National Park) can probably visualize what I'm talking about. You might average 35 miles per hour for an hour and the points might be substantially less than 35 miles apart, as the crow flies.

It wasn't intended as a shutdown of the Ranger ability, and it wasn't that I could tell taken as one by the players.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled arguments. :)
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
In this thread there has been reference by more than one poster (most recently @prabe just upthread) to a "spectrum" which has sandboxes at one end.

I think this is an unhelpful and even misleading confusion. It makes discussion of authority over the fiction harder than it needs to be.

So just to be clear: there is a spectrum on which colours lie - I'm not any sort of expert, and tend to suck both as visual artist and critic, but in my mind I can conjure up a spectrum that runs from yellow through orange to red.

Some spectrums are more metaphorical than literal: we might say that there is a metaphorical spectrum from square through pentagon through hexagon through . . . through chiliagon . . . all the way to a circle.

I personally struggle to think of even a metaphorical spectrum that has a triangle at one end and a square at the other.

And cars, trucks, and bicycles are all land vehicles but I don't think they sit on a spectrum at all.

So:

A sandbox involves predominant, even exclusive, GM authority over setting and backstory. (Maybe players contribute some backstory at PC gen, which they and the GM weave into the GM's notes about the setting.)

Many of the GM's setting elements - lairs, prisons, political factions, etc - have latent situations in them.

The players "activate" these situations by declaring the appropriate actions - eg that their PCs cross the hills to find the dragon cave or that their PCs talk to the mayor to try and secure her support in their attempt to overthrow the Baron.

So the players and the GM share situational authority, in the asymmetric fashion just described.

As far as action resolution is concerned, the GM - if they are not going to be self-defeating - has to be generous and permissive in adjudicating the "activating" actions. How other actions are adjudicated, and whether "Let it Ride" applies, is a different thing. I can certainly conceive of a GM who is very protective of his/her sandbox and so makes sure that player-declared actions don't really do much to change the setting (ie Let it Ride does not apply, and the GM manipulates the background fiction to negate possible significant consequences of PC actions).

Now consider the typical "linear" adventure - in D&D terms there are many of these, but Speaker in Dreams (a 3E module) is as good an example as any. In these adventures the GM also exercises backstory authority. The GM also exercises situational authority. And - related to this - whereas the sandbox GM should be very permissive in adjudication of "situation activating" actions, the GM of the linear adventure wants to discourage any such actions which might activate situations that have not already been planned/prepared for - either by express metagame requests to the players, or by using in-fiction techniques to discourage them (eg lots of "There be dragons" signposting), or by using adjudication techniques to block them (such as fiat declarations of failure; stuff like anti-teleport zones is probably on the line between in-fiction and adjudication-based techniques). And in a linear adventure Let it Ride can't apply, because the GM is committed to presenting the upcoming situations whatever the PCs' actions (subject to extreme unavoidable changes in the fiction like detonating a bomb - those actions also risk detonating a metaphorical bomb at the gaming table!).

So we can already see that there is no "spectrum" here, just different allocations of authority.

Now consider (say) Apocalypse World. The backstory authority is shared, as part of PC build. The GM exercises situational authority, exercised in accordance with the principles of the game. These include ask questions and build on the answers, which can mean taking significant suggestions and input on both backstory and situation during the course of play (eg the GM might ask player X, so why is Isle so mad at you? and then the player has to make up some appropriate bit of backstory which also helps inform the character of the current situation). The integrity of action resolution in AW is of course sacrosanct.

Again, no spectrum. Just different allocations of authority.

EDIT: I've just read @Composer99's post not too far upthread. I'm curious how much Composer99 thinks our descriptions of "linear adventure" differ - eg am I describing only a degenerate case? That wasn't my intention, and I don't think I am, but maybe I've missed something!
I disagree--I think viewing sandboxiness on a spectrum is extremely helpful to understanding how authority is distributed between the GM and players concerning the direction of the campaign.

For specificity, I'm defining the spectrum by the percentage* of strategy-level character decisions which are open-ended, rather than constrained (via the social contract) to discrete choices presented by the GM. At 100%, all strategic decisions are open-ended, with the GM obligated by the social contract to react to whatever the PCs decide to do. At 0%, none of the strategic decisions are open-ended, and the players are always obligated by the social contract to pick from the options presented to them. At in-between percentages, some strategic decisions are more open-ended than others, such as (e.g.) the style of campaign where the PCs are expected to pick from among prepared quests to pursue, but have carte-blanche to approach those quests with out-of-the-box strategies.

The closer a given campaign is to the sandbox end of this spectrum, the more de facto authority the players have over the direction of the campaign. Conversely, the closer a given campaign is to the opposite end of this spectrum, the less de facto authority the players have over the direction of the campaign. I therefore see the spectrum as a useful tool for mapping gradations in table expectations regarding open-ended strategic decisionmaking to differences in de facto player authority over campaign direction.

(*I am not suggesting that the numerical percentage for a given campaign is actually calculable--doing so would require specifying a reproducable procedure for identifying, counting, and weighting specific strategic decisions--but I think the existence of the spectrum is still useful as a comparative tool even without being precisely quantifiable.)
 


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