Crimson Longinus
Legend
If there is certain point (past level 11?) where the monk clearly drops behind most other classes damage-wise, how about increasing the number of flurry of blows attacks at that level?
D&D 5E Buffing monks: with simple changes.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
To the extent what you are saying is accurate, if monks need to be buffed I’d rather find ways to make those circumstances more common, rather than (solely) buff damage and AC.
clearstream
(He, Him)
I differentiate between insufficiently good, and what they seem intended to do. For example, the accuracy retake strikes me as an important piece of design. It attempts to increase damage expectation without increasing maximum damage. It's worded to work on top of advantage. "Only two" is deceptive: of all ranger 11th-level sub-class features, only one doesn't increase DPR expectation. That one is a defense, in line with what I described as the third approach (first = I get more attacks, second = I do more damage per attack, third = I sometimes get defenses.)
It's noticeable that the two classes that take the third approach - monk and ranger - are consistently down-rated by players. In part I believe that is because defenses (and buffs) are consistently undervalued... especially in whiteroom analyses.
Chaosmancer
Legend
While fair, making a 3-D battle space where people can be flung off cliffs boosts other people (the Warlock with repelling blast can potentially hit 3 people of the edge without needing to grapple, the Moon Druid can wildshape and fly, ect ect) and is also a double edged sword towards harming their allies.
I understand the desire not to just boost damage (I don't think many people are considering AC) but there aren't a lot of options for giving monks more circumstantial bonuses that will be effective in the majority of combats. It would have to be part of their normal attack action, and if you do something like add a debuff status effect... most of those would be too devastating to do at-will and the ones that aren't are not terribly effective most of the time.
Chaosmancer
Legend
See, but the "without increasing maximum damage" is the point we are saying is actually part of the problem. Because around level 11 the majority of classes DO increase their maximum damage. Every spellcaster gets a boost to cantrips and new spell levels, fighters get three attacks, rogue have constantly scaling sneak, paladins get Improved Divine Smite. Everyone is getting a spike, so it ends up noticeable that Monks and Rangers generally don't.
And I wouldn't go too heavy on the "people consistently undervalue" stuff. The Paladin gets +2d8 damage every single turn at will with no research expenditure. The Monster Slayer monk gets a single counterspell chance once per short rest. One of these is clearly far more consistently useful in combat than the other, just from the resources angle. The Drunk Monk can spend 2 ki to remove disadvantage, which first requires you to be at disadvantage, and 2 Ki is decently significant for the goal of restoring you to your default state. It isn't just a combat ability, I get that, but part of this realization is that most everyone else is getting not just a combat ability, but a damaging combat ability, around this level.
clearstream
(He, Him)
Everyone gets a spike, save rogues because their progression is more continual.
Well, in most whiteroom analysis, defenses do not feature. Incoming damage is disregarded. The whole focus is on calculating DPR. Additionally, the mathematical value of a defense (and buffs for that matter) is often not visible enough at the table. On the one hand.
On the other hand, I kind of agree. The designers have proven better able to craft more effective offences than they are defenses. Consider your argument about monster slayer versus paladin. In a sense, what you are saying is that the designers have given the monster slayer a less strong feature than they have given to paladin. The slayer feature will be clutch sometimes, but a lot of the time not matter. It's even been pre-nerfed by limiting its use to once per couple of combats.
One hardly ever reads player excitement about defensive abilities. They are undervalued. Buffs too, but not to the same extent.
Chaosmancer
Legend
I agree, but I also think that is because consistent defensive abilities are... hard. There aren't a lot of dials that are easy to turn without overpowering things.
xadd
Villager
in my personal opinion a way to start fixing monks is by looking at what other classes have. Im not even saying bump total hp. 1. making diamond soul a level 6 ability. aura of protection is still superior. make death save and rerolling the level 14 aspect of it. 2. this is a key feature here; make bonus action punch and flurry not have to be connected to an attack action and be used independently. 3. make an insignia of claws that scale to +3 for christs sake. 4. fighting style at level 2, and version of defence for unarmored. 5. make step of wind just double your speed and jump distance. 6. dex jump. 7. increase ma die. 8. more asi as getting ac up gunna consume everything you got. finally make flurry of blows scale to 4 punches at 11 and normal ba 2 punches at 11. (and maybe increase total ki) there is more that could be added but with these this will at least put monk on the map for being amazing skirmishers with emergency tankyness
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