D&D 5E Buffing monks: with simple changes.

Bill Zebub said:

Except that d12 is by far the coolest die. Who doesn’t want to roll d12?

d10 is an aberration.

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same as d4

Bill Zebub said:

Except that d12 is by far the coolest die. Who doesn’t want to roll d12?

d10 is an aberration.

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2d12 at 20th level. Then you have multiple dice to pick up off the floor after waiting an eternity for them to stop rolling.

TheOneGargoyle said:

Instead of 2 attacks as a bonus action ?

Although this would free up your BA to use PD or SotW, wouldn't this put monks even further behind in the damage dept than they already are ?

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You can still make another attack as a bonus action. What this does is give you the option to still get three attacks when you use a bonus action for something else like patient defense.

Undrave said:

Maybe if I got my Ki refunded if it failed I'd be more likely to use them?

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I like this refund idea. I'll try it out in the playtesting this weekend

FantasySciFi said:

I like this refund idea. I'll try it out in the playtesting this weekend

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Well since you’re playtest try regaining Proficiency Bonus worth Ki as an Action spending a hit die or Martial Arts Ki as an Action spending a hit die. If we had this as an optional class feature once or twice per day instead of the Healing option in Tasha’s it would’ve helped a lot.

kapars said:

I play on a Westmarches with 1000s of players on it. It’s the least frequently played class and while those (30 odd I think) that play it enjoy it for its flavor I promise you that each and every one of us wishes for more HP, more Ki and less restrictive mechanics for armor, multi-classing etc. I think that’s a meaningful enough sample size to suggest help is needed.

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Those are different concerns from what was described in the post I was replying to.

I agree the monk needs more ki. (And more magic items, but that’s just bc it’s boring to not have any) Yhat doesn’t make what they described accurate to most people’s experience.

as for multiclassing, I’ve multiclassed about half of the monks I’ve played, and seen many more in play, so I’m not sure what you mean. Druid, Ranger, rogue, fighter, I even did a monk/wizard that was a lot of fun, and had wild AC in Bladesong, Shadowblade, Hunter’s mark from Fey touched, and lots of fun tricks.

My Cobalt Soul/Inquisitive Rogue is one of my favorite characters, and I miss playing my Open Hand Monk/Swashbuckler Rogue.

The class has some pain points, but it’s far from ineffective.

As I said upthread, we have recently decided to give the Monk an action Ki regen PB/LR, and changed delfect arrows to deflect attacks and patient defense to also give THP. It’s not like I don’t see the pain points.

doctorbadwolf said:

Those are different concerns from what was described in the post I was replying to.

I agree the monk needs more ki. (And more magic items, but that’s just bc it’s boring to not have any) Yhat doesn’t make what they described accurate to most people’s experience.

as for multiclassing, I’ve multiclassed about half of the monks I’ve played, and seen many more in play, so I’m not sure what you mean. Druid, Ranger, rogue, fighter, I even did a monk/wizard that was a lot of fun, and had wild AC in Bladesong, Shadowblade, Hunter’s mark from Fey touched, and lots of fun tricks.

My Cobalt Soul/Inquisitive Rogue is one of my favorite characters, and I miss playing my Open Hand Monk/Swashbuckler Rogue.

The class has some pain points, but it’s far from ineffective.

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I have multi-classed it too. I’m specifically referring to the 13 in two stats which makes multi-classing with something INT/CHA based difficult unless you sacrifice CON. This is in the context of point buy of course.

kapars said:

I have multi-classed it too. I’m specifically referring to the 13 in two stats which makes multi-classing with something INT/CHA based difficult unless you sacrifice CON. This is in the context of point buy of course.

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Yeah in general I think 5e would be improved by having a higher point buy for people who use that option.

Point buy does decrease the options, of course, though you've still got Druid, Ranger, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric, and technically Barbarian though I'm not sure how well that would work.

I do think that more frequent ki refresh, maybe a little more ki at low levels, make deflect arrows into deflect attacks, and make the martial arts die start at d6, and 99% of the problems disapear, so I certainly don't think that the monk is difficult to fix without causing any incompatibility with existing subclasses. Still, even when we run 5e with no houserules, we don't experience much issue with Monks. No more than half the other classes, at least.

jgsugden said:

While stunning is their primary shtick,

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Which, BTW, comes online at level 5, when everybody else gets their schtick at level 1 or 2. The Monk really sticks out compared to other class because it's defining feature seems to shift with level.

jgsugden said:

I don't know what to tell you other than that there are a lot of people that are having a really good time playing monks, so it is plainly false to say the class can't be fun - and if it can be fun, it is fine.

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And just because people are having fun doesn't mean the mechanics don't need an overhaul.

Bill Zebub said:

That said, I'll reiterate that I think some of their abilities could and should be tweaked and improved. But the class isn't an ill-defined hot mess with no role. It's a lot of fun to play, even with no changes at all.

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When they designed the Monk they just kept piling on the class features, as if following a laundry list of past edition call backs they had to include. Like, Deflect arrow. It's a cool and flavourful concept but it feels needlessly fiddly for a limited scope feature. Why not just let us spend Ki reactively to do Patient Defense like suggested upthread? Some features interact with Ki, some don't. None of them seems to improve the base Martial Arts class features. Some care about your armor, others do not. It just doesn't feel as coherent mechanically as other classes, despite the clear theming. I think they tried too hard to give you ways to do very specific things instead of the general 'feel' of being a martial artist, if that makes sense?

I played a Way of Shadow Monk and the running up walls, sneaking around, teleporting into shadows (though I kept forgetting the advantage afterwards)... it's pretty cool. But when a fight breaks out I feel like a friggin' sidekick. Despite having godly rolled stats I felt super easy to hit and frail, felt like I had no damage, and I kept running out of Ki points while trying to keep up in terms of damage or control with the rest of the party.

Horwath said:

I would not give monks unarmed damage higher than that of a greatsword.
No matter how much we want to indulge into shaolin mysticism.

That is why I suggested that it maxes out at d12.
That also might be too much, but it's is needed for game balance.

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I'd prefer 2d6 over d12 for the consistency myself.