D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

Haplo781 said:

I'm kinda hoping D&D gets big in Japan, because it means more demand for anime-esque/wuxia style action.

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Huh? It's been big, so much so they created their own versions of it. Ever hear of The Record of Lodoss War?

Cadence said:

It feels like it comes down to what fiction folks.have in their head and everyone agreeing.

Having Conan advance from young thief to pirate/warrior king feels like a.different fiction than having him advance from young thief to MCU Thor.

I wonder if the difficulty is how magic is portrayed in the differing motivational fiction.

In most of Glen Cook's the Black Company series, the company's wizards Goblin and One-Eye are good, but the actual experienced martials are important too and they complement each other. In his Dread Empire, the experienced martials and Gish seem vaguely balanced, but the strong wizards that fight along side the warriors are off the chart. In neither of them would an off the chart martial feel right. (The BBG in each are a super powered NPC wizardy types).

In any case, in D&D it feels like there are two different games fighting each other - one with the "classical martials" where the wizards might need to be limited if things are to be kept on an even keel, and one with "super casters" where the martials might need to be opened up more to balance it.

I wonder if the best (not going to happen) solution for hitting the biggest chunk of motivating fictions is to have two sets of core books. One presenting things capping out at around level 8 or 10 or whatnot, and describing a world like that, and another presenting things capping out around 20 and presenting a world that fits that.

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Just bring back the Basic/Advanced lines

Minigiant said:

Exactly.

Batman and Green Arrow get computer brains and super reflexes when they go to Justice League. Because they have to doge where Superman and Wonder Woman can eat lasers to the chest.

A high level martial really should have multiple reactions per turn.

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Check out Adventures in Rokugan, they noticed the same thing, and fixed it.

Haplo781 said:

Just bring back the Basic/Advanced lines

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Ultimately though, that led to TSR competing with itself, which didn't turn out very well at the time.

James Gasik said:

Huh? It's been big, so much so they created their own versions of it. Ever hear of The Record of Lodoss War?

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Old-school D&D is. They're not much into WotC D&D.

James Gasik said:

Huh? It's been big, so much so they created their own versions of it. Ever hear of The Record of Lodoss War?

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I literally saw that one night on cable and didn't know what it was called and went to my Vampire group and asked if any of them (big group knew more anime) knew what Anime it was cause it was D&D... that was all that was needed to be told Record of the Lodoss war and be given the VHSs to watch.

James Gasik said:

Check out Adventures in Rokugan, they noticed the same thing, and fixed it.

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I really have to check that out

Minigiant said:

Exactly.

Batman and Green Arrow get computer brains and super reflexes when they go to Justice League. Because they have to doge where Superman and Wonder Woman can eat lasers to the chest.

A high level martial really should have multiple reactions per turn.

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Something does certainly change in the JLA or Avengers books when the varying power levels are together. But it feels to me like it's more like the top end is nerfed that the bottom end brought up.

Superman and Wonder Woman and Thor and Captain Marvel have a lot of stories in their own books where thank goodness Batman and Songbird and Hawkeye and Hawkeye aren't along, because they would just die without a naughty word ton of plot armor. The Thor who takes on a celestial in his own book doesn't feel anything like the Thor who struggles against Orca.

Is the only reason JLA or Avengers comics work because the Superman or Monica Rambeau powered hero or villain doesn't do what a lot of D&D players would do and use their powers to their fullest and just kill all the none top tier powered folks on the other side with one action in a single round? (See also the differing fates of Thor.and Cap when they fight the Presence in Kang Dynasty, or how Kingdom Come goes for most of the folks).

Batman puts up a fight against Supes in Dark Knight Returns because he's prepared for it forever, Superman has a convenient Achilles heal that Thor doesn't, Superman is weakened, and Superman doesn't want to kill him. Make it spontaneous, and Superman flies through Bats at near the speed of light before Bats even recognizes the pinging of any alarms. (See many scenes out of the Authority or Bendis having Sentry take out Ares).

Scribe said:

I object to the idea that a single Fighter, (applying 5e terms) would be able to defeat what is a party (if not larger) level threat, solo, and yes to narrate it in such a way as was presented in the video.

I do not believe a group of Fighters, should be able to defeat such a Monster, and that it should take a 'balanced' party with buffs, debuffs, healing, magic, and yes Magic Items, for a Fighter to be the essential spear point.

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Without knowing the game, I would look at that and think that that machine is pretty similar to a dragon. Maybe Huge or Gargantuan I'm not sure, but without some of the special abilities/spells etc of an actual dragon. I think that the average dragon could probably tear it up, so why not a group of level 20 characters willing to burn their daily resources?

It is impossible to know its actual hit points, so I'm guessing the issue is the looks of the fight rather than the "fighters can't do enough damage" technical aspect that snaps your suspension of disbelief?
I'm guessing it wouldn't look weird to you if it was a volley of missiles blowing it up, or a laser vaporising its midsection, but one guy with a sword is a step too far?

I dont hate Fighters/Martials, love them. I just absolutely believe that the game is better, when you have a diverse party with diverse roles, with strengths AND WEAKNESSES that the various party members must cover each other for. Nobody should 'swing a sword' better than a Fighter, it shouldnt be close. So take that Fighter's strength, add in the Clerics strengths, the Wizards, the Bards, and suddenly that Fighter, is greater than than he could ever be.

Its like Raid Buffs in MMO's. I love those, because your Character will never be as powerful alone, as it is when you are playing with your friends.

The idea of running a party of 4 Martial classes with no Magic and no Healing, is nonsensical to me.

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Why is that nonsensical? I see all-caster parties be highly successful extremely often.

James Gasik said:

Ultimately though, that led to TSR competing with itself, which didn't turn out very well at the time.

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Is joke. Hence emoji.

Seriously though what I would like is for WotC to just open up the 5e OGL to every past edition of D&D (particularly 4e, which has a horribly restrictive license and is incredibly difficult to clone) and allow 3pp books for them via DM's Guild.

I'm a lot less sanguine about the prospect of that happening now with this "One D&D" business, but maybe a couple years after launch, when they've got everyone to make the jump from 5e...