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    4E Are powers samey?

    No, for three reasons. First, even though you don't agree, I still think that 4e rituals are not a complete substitute for the strategic-layer character abilities found in other editions and that are missing from 4e powers. (Note, I am using the definition of "character abilities" I described...
  2. X

    4E Are powers samey?

    Thank you, this explanation helps. Apparently I misunderstood why you agreed with me about 4e powers and rituals not being as effective as 5e spells for bypassing encounters. We aren't in nearly as much agreement as I thought, which makes the rest of the exchange more understandable. I...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    Yes, I've read the 4e DMG, although I've probably only read it cover to cover once, back when I was playing 4e. Until this thread I interpreted page 42 and "say yes" as applying to abilities that the characters arguably have, but for which no specific rule exists. In other words: mundane...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    Now I'm really confused. Earlier, you said: I asked whether, given our agreement on the above point, you could see how that could lead someone other than you to view the 4e powers as "samey". Now you're claiming that my impression isn't based on the comparative inability to bypass encounters...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    Then I'm the one failing to understand your reply. I'm basically asking whether or not you can see my point of view, even though you disagree with it. I don't understand how re-explaining your own point of view is responsive to my question.
  6. X

    4E Are powers samey?

    Thanks for providing another in-depth response. I can't agree with your conclusion, however, that 4e necessarily supports expanding rituals beyond their printed descriptions. Most of the examples you've provided are of DM-placed obstacles that happen to provide for an arcana skill check to...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    That also doesn't seem to answer my question. Are you unclear as to what I am asking, or would you prefer not to answer? I don't mind either way, I just don't want to spend time explaining my question if you're not interested in it.
  8. X

    4E Are powers samey?

    It's totally cool with me that you don't agree. :) But that doesn't quite answer my question. To rephrase: Can you see why the comparatively restricted ability of 4e's powers and rituals to bypass encounters could contribute to someone else's feeling that 4e's powers and rituals are...
  9. X

    4E Are powers samey?

    @Garthanos and @doctorbadwolf, with regards to skill challenges and character abilities: As I described here, my overall intent in this thread is to explain why I personally find 4e's powers to be "samey". As part of doing so, I have made numerous references to "character abilities". I'm using...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    Thank you for clarifying; I appreciate it! As expressed above, I don't consider a short-range teleport the same level of bypassing @Manbearcat's encounter as a long-range teleport. With regards to my 5e example, I would note that in @Manbearcat's example, it's a rescue, not a kidnapping, so the...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    Do you have a citation that supports the idea that characters have the IC ability to modify portals? Or is your assertion based on the idea that players can declare any action they want, and if the DM opts to permit it, the character necessarily has the ability to accomplish that action? Skill...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    Thanks for going into so much detail! I really appreciate it. For purposes of discussing the range of out-of-combat abilities provided by 4e rituals (and to what extent it covers the range of such abilities in other editions) I don't think it's useful to consider that the DM can expand the...
  13. X

    4E Are powers samey?

    I agree that you've identified many of the ways that 4e powers are distinctively "samey". I think you left out how 4e powers distinctively use a unified mechanical structure for both magical and mundane abilities. (Your number 4 is related, but deals more with the range of status effects...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    My post may not have been sufficiently clear. I will try to clarify: I entirely agree that rituals matter a lot to the discussion, but they specifically matter for purposes of considering how problematic one finds it that 4e powers can feel "samey" due to the fact that they don't cover the full...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    I'm trying to explain and discuss why I personally find powers in 4e to be "samey". I'm doing so in response to explicit questions posed originally by the OP, and more recently by @Manbearcat. So I'm not arguing for anything at all--I'm providing requested detail as to the origin of my opinion...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    I was under the impression that teleportation rituals in 4e were one-way. Do you have a page cite specifying any that are two-way? Even if they are two-way, however, if you read @Manbearcat's encounter example, the NPC isn't free to be picked up to be carried through a portal. Regardless of...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    How can you teleport the party and the NPC out in the first round of combat in 4e? Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, rituals take too long to cast, and teleportation via powers is limited to short range. Was quick-cast long-range teleportation added back in to the edition after I stopped playing?
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    4E Are powers samey?

    I agree with much of your post, but disagree with your conclusion above. From my perspective, muting extra-encounter strategy directly impacts the feeling that 4e powers are "samey" (for players whose preferred playstyles emphasizes such extra-encounter strategy, anyway). When such a player goes...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    I love SWSE despite not being particularly fond of 4e. The systems share a lot conceptually (e.g. every class is on a unified structural framework), so it's a valid question as to why I like one and don't like the other. For me I think the key differences that influence my differing opinions on...
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    4E Are powers samey?

    The encounter you've described is not one that would fit well in my preferred playstyle, either as a player or as a DM. I personally prefer organic encounters that arise as a result of the PCs' strategic choices, so a pre-planned encounter with scripted features like the ones you describe...
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