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I agree. I never made any sort of value judgement at all. Other than anyone who expects WotC to make big changes to the game is going to be disappointed. WotC knows what they are doing, for the most part. The fandom has spoken very clearly that they are not interested in WotC making big...

Silly me. You are right. Of course @mamba, you are right.

No. That was your question maybe, but, that was never the actual point of discussion. But, seriously, do you honestly believe that D&D is innovative? Really? This is a system that took nearly 30 years to answer the question, "How far can my character jump?" Do you really look to D&D for...

Ok, let's say you're right. Fair enough. 4e is a big change. Totally accepted by the fandom wasn't it? Oh, wait, no it wasn't. The fandom to this day have noped so hard on it that we still cannot talk about 4e without edition warriors coming out of the woodwork. And, let's not forget, 4e...

Oh, yes. Absolutely. But, apparently, I'm 100% in the wrong here for saying this. So, I guess you're wrong too. I have to say that the scales have fallen from my eyes. I mean, one of the big innovations in D&D being touted here is a 30 some year old setting whose fans have strangled any...

Which has been my basic point all the way along despite the words being put in my mouth. D&D has NEVER been allowed to really make any changes. Any changes are tiny, incremental and take a really long time. Which is, IMO, the opposite of being innovative. I mean, good grief, @Alzrius has to...

Oh, totally fair. I agree. However, regardless of what we may think, the entire format was ejected and we're now right back to square one.

Again, that's my point. Look at all those really innovative mechanics... oh right, the new psion is a warmed over caster. Exactly what people demanded.

I'd point out a significant difference. I lost the argument. The changes went through regardless of whether I liked them or not. Unlike the thousands of other changes that never see the light of day because the fandom crushes any real changes. I mean good grief, Council of Wyrms? Seriously...

And? You needed to go back thirteen years and dredge up a change I didn’t like? Talk about petty. Oh no I didn’t like a single change they made to the game thirty or forty years ago. What’s your point? OTOH, is everyone excited about the new purple dragon knight? A class where you get to...

That's the point. Where is the Delve format now? Is it in use? Are we seeing it in any of the 5e adventures? Oh, right. No we aren't. Why not? Because it was immediately dumped on by the fandom that hated it. So, out the window it went. Just like any other time WotC tries to do...

The Delve Format was a 4e innovation where the formatting of adventures was changed so that everything you needed to run a given encounter was always on a single page. Errr, that's not quite right. Two facing pages (whatever that's called). Meaning you never had to flip pages or reference...

I'm not interested in pedantic one upsmanship. I've explained what I meant. You understand what I meant. You just now want to insist on arguing terminology. Fair enough. You win. You are 100% right.

The point being, if you look at things like adventures and AP's and other stuff that isn't rule books, what innovations do we see? Take any of the latest AP's and how are they any really different from a module written in the 1980's? WotC tried to do something different with the Delve format -...

Sorry, I thought I was clear. I was talking about how I view innovation and why I don't particularly think of D&D as being innovative. I don't really care about other people's definitions. 🤷

But, doesn't innovation mean to create something new? Bolting on the skill system from Role Master into D&D wasn't an innovation, IMO. 1e didn't innovate anything over OD&D. Not really. heck, the systems were close enough that you could play ODnD adventures in AD&D and not really change much...

No, I said that D&D was bringing in innovations that are several years behind the curve. 3e was heavily influenced by Rolemaster, a game that had been around for, what, a decade or more before 3e? Pulling tried and true things into the game is a great way to build a game. But, it's not what...

But 3e wasn't innovative in terms of RPG's though. It borrowed pretty much wholesale from existing games. Granted the d20 mechanics was pretty innovative, but, otherwise, very little in 3e was unfamiliar to anyone who played games other than D&D. 4e brought in mechanics from other games and...

I'd certainly check it out but, again, backwards compatibility is important to me now. I love the fact that I can now pick up an eight year old module, hit up Reddit, and there's a thousand pages of additions for that adventure, never minding that there's a thousand more available for pay. And...

But, again, why would you ever look to D&D for that? D&D has never been that.