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the latest Orr report doesn't agree.

The gatekeeping claims are 100% BS. To the contrary, people complaining about PF2E want it to appeal to MORE people.

I think this is always true. And triply so on the internet. However, the reverse applies as well. People will insist that the thing they like is perfect "as is" and no amount of evidence will change that. I think PF2E failed to learn from 4E when it went all-in on a math-balance first...

Ultimately that's the thing. There are lots of different things that can be discussed. I see the question at hand to be "is PF2E the crowd-pleaser fan base growing system that it certainly could have been?" I perceive the answer as a clear no. That isn't a knock on anyone who loves it. But...

In entirely constructive: people who don't like a game can't ruin the game. Just think about it. You not liking what they say is understandable. But the people who like the game still like the game and the people who don't still don't. Confusing your personal annoyance with impact on the...

and here comes the blame game....

I don't think it would be productive to drag this thread into this dead horse beating. It is more than fair to claim that without the massive leg up that 4E received by virtue of simply being D&D, it would have not shown up meaningfuly in the ranks of "every single RPG". So judging it in...

Works for me

You are referencing the 2009 PF? Not sure I follow how there as much on that front between 3X and the original PF. And I never have heard anyone express that point either. Over and over I've heard that a fair number of 3X fans were unhappy that PH codified things as even more implicitly...

OK noted. You quoted games "careening out of control" and said that was exactly it, with italics. So I took you to mean just that. If you don't have those problems, then rules whose sole purpose is to solve those problems add zero value while creating unneeded constraints. Different game...

IME the completely open ended narrative nature of RPGs is such that mechanical controls which replace DM judgement virtually always end up doing more harm than good. In the abstract I 100% agree that a seemless support for the DM is good. And less rules are way better than more rules, as long...

Well, PF was, by their own marketing "3.5 Thrives". I think it is much more appropriate to compare PF2E to 4E on this front. And that is specifically "As a reaction (or over reaction) to the complaints against 3X". I would put them in the same ballpark, but IMO, WotC did a much worse job...

Not sure if you and I are coming from the same place, but this statement very much applies to me. The character's background as a blacksmith is a narrative concept. The character being a priest of the god of blacksmiths is a narrative concept. Narrative concepts are not the first priority of...

I'm very interested to see how this goes. But I do think there is a lot of difference here. When PF came along as a 3X clone there was intense love of 3X still around and a lot of dissatisfaction with 4E, without a great alternative. There are a ton of great alternatives now and that is...

Only you can tell anyone what you meant. Here is what you said: "I do feel like the APG release is going to be the next real telling point for 2e. That was really the turning point for PF1 and it could really be the same for PF2. Not that it will catch 5e that isn't happening, but where it...

This is high end stuff. If done well it can create the kind of things players talk about for years. But it does need to be done well and with a group of players who are invested in this type game.

Time will tell has been my position throughout. The claim is that it would be a telling point. And, yet again, all we have is reasons to possibly ignore a declining trend over time and a drop right at the time a rebound was forecast. It certainly isn't good news.

The APG is out, and PF2E is much lower than it was when this prediction was made.

HA! How does "And my request for you to FIRST explain how you understand my personal dissatisfaction with PF2E and will mitigate my concerns also still stands. If you can do that, then I'm there. " get hand-waved away as "blah blah blah". You clearly can't even wrap your brain around the...

Huh? I said I know exactly what about PF2E I dislike. How can that POSSIBLY indicate I haven't played it. It is TRUE that I have not played it "a lot". But you seem to be just saying what you wish was true here and ignoring what is actually said. For the record, I'm disappointed that Paizo...