D&D 5E (2024) 2024 UA species and Body Horror

[Kobold Stew]

The current development team clearly believes that body horror is an aesthetic that players want to inhabit when the play their games. The lasts UA offers these species options:

• Deep Imaskari: “bodies have been warped”
• Drider: “Some driders have additional spider-like features, such as eight eyes”; type: monstrosity
• Ilithidkin: “experimentation on humanoid test subjects…wriggling tentacles”
• Koa-toa: “fishlike humanoids with slimy bodies and scales”

None of these are species that I have ever heard players wanting to play, and certainly not as part of a campaign. The final option, myconid, I get: bipedal fungal folk are not inherently icky, and the chance to play a plant creature (this, or a vegepygmy, or Bulbasoar) will appeal to some.

This is not to yuck on someone else’s yum. Everyone has different tastes, de gustibus non disputandum est. These are all villainous/Underdark choices, and so the nature of evil is present implicitly. I accept that, but I also think it’s possible to engage with a setting without asking players to embrace body horror. There will be some who have always wanted to play a koa-toa. I’ve just not met them, and I am surprised that this is where the designers want to head. And it’s clear, to me, they do:

• Paths of Villany offered a way to change your character into a Death Knight or a Lich
• The last Underdark UA offered a way to mutate into a Mind Flayer.

All this is focused on a kind of body horror that I don’t see as heroic or interesting for continued role-play. Even if I can play a zero-to-hero narrative of a being whose flesh is continually slimy and moist, I can’t think of models that I would want to emulate in fiction as part of this fantasy.

This leads to two further thoughts.

• The design flow appears to be (first) what is the setting we are going to populate and only then what species might fit in this. We can see that in the latest Eberron book, where we get Warforged and Shifter (both of which have an appeal I understand, even if I don’t particularly want to play one), but when they re-introduce half-elves they don’t use the name, and they avoid presenting goblinoids altogether, which are deeply entrenched in the setting.
• Even though the 2024 rules diminished the mechanical weight of species (to a point where many feel species choice almost doesn’t matter), there seems to be a reticence to give us the low-hanging fruit, but instead to explore aspects of the grotesque and body horror.

What are the low-hanging fruit? First, species from mythology: centaur, satyr, fairy, triton. We have seen digital versions of dhampir and shifter (vampire- and werewolf adjacent), which I’d put in this category too. Second, long-established dnd species: goblinoids, kobold, lizardfolk. I think we could add the half-animal species too (tabaxi, harengon, and of course a dog species). Granted, these are all in earlier 2014-era books, and updating them is relatively straightforward. That’s precisely why I think they should do so: these are the appropriate targets for a system with minimal impact. Give the resources for kids play their cat-people if that’s what they want, and not need to look for a book that predates their PHB.

I’ve participated in a lot of what-species-do-you-and-your-players-like threads on these forums, and, for those who want to go beyond the PHB species, the list has always been relatively constant. Even playing a Triton, a Genasi, or a Githyanki, i.e. creatures that emerge naturally from a given environment, make sense to me as a supported player option. It is the focus on monstrosity that I find surprising and out of step with what I see players asking for.

So, tell me about your dreams of playing a koa-toa or an Imaskari. Is this something that appeals to you? Why do you think this is being pushed rather than more traditional D&D/fantasy options? Is finding heroism through body horror an aesthetic that’s just passed me by?

 

[Tigris]

• drider: People want to play/be spiderpeople since Arachne in classical mythology. There is even one really successfull anime/manga about being reborn as a spider. Many animes/mangad/light noveld /eastern games feature sexy spider woman. Spiderman (with all the other spider x including several woman) is one of the most liked comic. Here an example from a video game where you play this: https://www.smitegame.com/gods/arachne
• Tentacles is a really successfull "adultmovie" categorie. People having erotic fantasies about tentacles (and pictures about it like with an octopuss) since 100s of years. The chthulhu tentacle skin is one of the most popular skin in smite: https://smite.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Whisperer_Ah_Muzen_Cab_voicelines and in smite 2 Chtulhu is a popular god to play.
• Male Fish people are popular in romance novels for woman. There was even a main stream movie about this: The Shape of Water - Wikipedia

What you see as "body horror" many others see as "i want to get laid by that."


These forum here and many other places are extreme bubbles. Most people here are old, english-native, male GMs. Thats a really small percentage of the world and even from Pen and Paper players.


Also 5.5 is fully compatible with 5.0 races (with minor change with the attribute) Some old races where redone in 5.5 but many of the later races from 5.0 were redone after tashas and thus are good enough for use in 5.5


Why should one redo centaur and satyr when they exist and are NOT underpowered like humans and others would have been?


Also we do have some REALLY strong 5.5 races! Lorwyn elf being able to give you true strike with int, cha or wis can be an absolute game changer for many classes.


Wild hunt shifter makes that enemies have no longer advantage attacking a barbarian when he uses his advantage class feature. That is huge. (And temp hp with rage where damage is halved is also a nice bonus)


Long tooth shifter gives a bonus action attack. This normally costs a feat working only with specific weapons or is a limited class feature.

Human gives a 2nd origin feat which allows access to a 2nd feat tree potentially and allowing builds not possible otherwise.


And these are features in addition to other festures like skill proficiencies and dark vision Etc.

 

[Kobold Stew]

• drider: People want to play/be spiderpeople since Arachne in classical mythology. There is even one really successfull anime/manga about being reborn as a spider. Many animes/mangad/light noveld /eastern games feature sexy spider woman. Spiderman (with all the other spider x including several woman) is one of the most liked comic. Here an example from a video game where you play this: https://www.smitegame.com/gods/arachne
• Tentacles is a really successfull "adultmovie" categorie. People having erotic fantasies about tentacles (and pictures about it like with an octopuss) since 100s of years. The chthulhu tentacle skin is one of the most popular skin in smite: https://smite.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Whisperer_Ah_Muzen_Cab_voicelines and in smite 2 Chtulhu is a popular god to play.
• Male Fish people are popular in romance novels for woman. There was even a main stream movie about this: The Shape of Water - Wikipedia

Thanks for all of these; I appreiciate your thoughts. Yes, an appeal obviously exists. But there is a step between sexy fish man and koa toa, isn't there? I get sea elf and triton. I have never heard anyone wish that they could play (or get laid by) a koa-toa. I also get drider (look also at The Stalk in Saga comics), but it seems odd for it to be supported directly, but centaur not to be.

Which, sure, may say something about the people I hang around, but it seems to me to be an odd angle to push, especially when it would be so easy to produce content for what I have called the low-hanging fruit.

What you see as "body horror" many others see as "i want to get laid by that."

These are absolutely overlapping categories, yes. But, no surprise, there are many fantasy things that humans want to have sex with -- it's not only "bodies that have been warped". The feat chains make the sequence explicit: designers are offering ways to become monstrous over time, and with an investment over the course of a long campaign, and there are no corresponding improve-into-more-traditionally-heroic icons.

Also 5.5 is fully compatible with 5.0 races (with minor change with the attribute) Some old races where redone in 5.5 but many of the later races from 5.0 were redone after tashas and thus are good enough for use in 5.5

"good enough" isn't making money for the company though. Sure, it's fine, and I can adapt MotM and other materials. But I'm thinking specifically of younger gamers that the company says they want to attract and get money from.

Why should one redo centaur and satyr when they exist and are NOT underpowered like humans and others would have been?

I don't understand this point. Does anyone think the Centaur in MotM is on the same power level as a human?

Also we do have some REALLY strong 5.5 races! Lorwyn elf being able to give you true strike with int, cha or wis can be an absolute game changer for many classes.

High elf gives you the same. I am not saying anyone feels elves are underpowerred either. Absolutely, there are powerful species, but it's not the mechanics I'm talking about. It's that they aren't offering players who want to roleplay a catgirl (of which there are many, and again younger players specifically familiar with manga) an easy way to do so.

 

[Scribe]

• Paths of Villany offered a way to change your character into a Death Knight or a Lich
• The last Underdark UA offered a way to mutate into a Mind Flayer.

All this is focused on a kind of body horror that I don’t see as heroic or interesting for continued role-play.

You may not find it heroic (check the wider space of Fantasy outside of D&D, heroic is not required) but interesting? You dont think the progression to become a Death Knight/Lich, the choices made, the reasons why those choices are made, that couldnt be interesting??

Heck, you could be a Death Knight in WoW for how long?

 

[Charlaquin]

You don’t have to play any of these species. But, there definitely are players who would want to play them.

 

[Kobold Stew]

You may not find it heroic (check the wider space of Fantasy outside of D&D, heroic is not required) but interesting? You dont think the progression to become a Death Knight/Lich, the choices made, the reasons why those choices are made, that couldnt be interesting??

It absolutely could be, especially for a story with a single protagonist. For a group, though, with one person making choices of this scale that impacts them and doesn't impact others? I do not see that as building cohesiveness.

Not that it couldn't happen, but it's unlikely to, and there's a lot out there that would do so in a more straightforward way (or so I believe; that's why I'm asking).

Heck, you could be a Death Knight in WoW for how long?

Are you suggesting they are trying to lure WoW players with these options?

You don’t have to play any of these species. But, there definitely are players who would want to play them.

I totally understand that. I am surprised, though, that the hypothesized player group is thought to be larger for Deep Imaskari, Koa-Toa, and morphing into a Lich through a feat chain than those players who want to play an updated Tabaxi, Lizardfolk, and Goblin. And that the size disparity is of such a size that the latter category are not getting anything (so far in 2024 UA proposals).

Let all the flowers bloom.

 

[Scribe]

It absolutely could be, especially for a story with a single protagonist. For a group, though, with one person making choices of this scale that impacts them and doesn't impact others? I do not see that as building cohesiveness.

Not that it couldn't happen, but it's unlikely to, and there's a lot out there that would do so in a more straightforward way (or so I believe; that's why I'm asking).

Granted, there is probably a need for some shared perspective on the path to power here, but I applaud this development. D&D has been one note for a very very long time now.

Are you suggesting they are trying to lure WoW players with these options?

I think that younger players who grew up in a world where one of the major Fantasy 'voices' had a playable Death Knight, Demon Hunters? For as long as they have been alive in some cases?

I think its more a case of 'what is taking Wizards so long in providing some cool options with edge?'

A Death Knight when I was a kid? Unheard of! Thats the villain!

A Death Knight where my son hasn't known a world where WoW didnt exist and a playable Death Knight (and undead person...) was an option and the star of a whole expansion? Just makes sense that that would exist. To say nothing of the wider media landscape.

 

[Kobold Stew]

D&D has been one note for a very very long time now.

How would you characterize that one note?

 

[Scribe]

How would you characterize that one note?

For the majority of 5e (including and especially 5.5) ?

"You are good people doing good things for good purposes because good is good."

 

[Tigris]

Thanks for all of these; I appreiciate your thoughts. Yes, an appeal obviously exists. But there is a step between sexy fish man and koa toa, isn't there? I get sea elf and triton. I have never heard anyone wish that they could play (or get laid by) a koa-toa. I also get drider (look also at The Stalk in Saga comics), but it seems odd for it to be supported directly, but centaur not to be.

People dont know what koa toa is exactly and just read description and think fish man.

Which, sure, may say something about the people I hang around, but it seems to me to be an odd angle to push, especially when it would be so easy to produce content for what I have called the low-hanging fruit.

The content for the low hanging fruits is there. People can buy it. It makes a lot more sense to buy new stuff people can buy.

"good enough" isn't making money for the company though. Sure, it's fine, and I can adapt MotM and other materials. But I'm thinking specifically of younger gamers that the company says they want to attract and get money from.

But the younger gamers can also easily buy in dnd beyond monsters of the universe etc which give many races.

I don't understand this point. Does anyone think the Centaur in MotM is on the same power level as a human?

It has 40 feet speed which is really good and gives an inbuilt bonus action attack (1d6 + strength) both are rare features for a race. And for a barbarian as one example that is both useful. And powerfull build is a nice flavour.


And the extra attack is ideal to be used with brural strikes on level 9 since you dont lose as much damage there as you would with a main attack and it still profit from rage.

High elf gives you the same. I am not saying anyone feels elves are underpowerred either. Absolutely, there are powerful species, but it's not the mechanics I'm talking about. It's that they aren't offering players who want to roleplay a catgirl (of which there are many, and again younger players specifically familiar with manga) an easy way to do so.

But there is a catrace already with tabaxi. Then shifter can be cat based. (Long tooth?) Then the new duskling are fox based which is similar so you have fox girl. Lupin are wolf based and wolf girl.

So these things are covered.