D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] - Can you Take 10 or Take 20 on a Hide check?

[RigaMortus]

I believe that you can. A friend of mine says you can't.

I say, as long as you are not being threatened or rushed in anyway, you can take 10 or 20 on a Hide. I think that the person you are trying to Hide from can't be aware of you though (unless you have something like the Hide in Plain Sights ability).

My friend seems to think that, if you are trying to Hide from someone, then you can't Take 10 because they would technically be considered a threat. After all, why else would you be hiding from them?

Can someone please clear this up for me so that I can show him that I am (hopefully) right, and that I am the better rules lawyer than he is.

 

[der_kluge]

Taking 20 essentially means that you are going to allow yourself to fail at least once. It takes time, so essentially when you take 20, you are going to take a 1, then a 2, then a 3, and then you'll stop at 20 until you get it right.

If you have time, and are not being threatened, or the opponents obviously can't see you (i.e., you are setting yourself up to ambush someone coming around a bend), then you can certainly take a 20 on a hide check.

 

[Henrix]

You can only take twenty if the skill attempted carries no penalties for failure. Hiding does have a penalty for failure, being found.

There's nothing in 'taking 20' that guarantees that it is your twentieth attempt that will be the roll of 20, just that one of your rolls probably will be a twenty. If you try to hide twenty times it does not matter what that you once rolled a twenty, but what you rolled when the enemy had a chance to spot you.

I'd allow taking 10, though. Taking a little while to make sure your bum isn't sticking out from behind the rock can be worthwhile.

 

[rlphay]

You can only take twenty if the skill attempted carries no penalties for failure. Hiding does have a penalty for failure, being found.

There's nothing in 'taking 20' that guarantees that it is your twentieth attempt that will be the roll of 20, just that one of your rolls probably will be a twenty. If you try to hide twenty times it does not matter what that you once rolled a twenty, but what you rolled when the enemy had a chance to spot you.

I'd allow taking 10, though. Taking a little while to make sure your bum isn't sticking out from behind the rock can be worthwhile.

I will agree with this. You can only take a 20 if there is no detrimental affect. In this it is against the other persons sopt check. If the spot check is better then your hide then you are spotted. Taking a 10 would be allowed.

 

[Corwin]

So, according to your interpretation, you can never Take 20 on any skill check when failure is undesirable? That seems odd to me since any failure, in any normal situation, is a bad thing.

What skill check can you Take 20 on then? Because every skill check, if you fail, is detrimental.

Skill examples you cannot Take 20 on: Climb, Jump, Craft... (things that have an inherent penalty for failure).

"Inherent penalty" would not include being found by someone. That is just normal failure.

So yes, you can Take 20 on a Hide check. You are just taking the extra time (2 minutes +) to be as well hidden as possible.

 

[Skinwalker]

I agree that you couldn't take 20 since failure has a direct consequence. However, it seems reasonable to add a circumstance bonus to the Hide check to simulate a person taking their time and finding the best spot in which to hide.

 

[Henrix]

You can take twenty on stuff where you can easily try again, like opening a lock, climbing a hill (where you won't fall far enough to hurt you), searching through a room, etc.

When you fail to open a lock, you've just failed and can try again, the next round.
When you have failed to hide, you are spotted, and cannot hide again.

 

[Pielorinho]

So, according to your interpretation, you can never Take 20 on any skill check when failure is undesirable? That seems odd to me since any failure, in any normal situation, is a bad thing.

What skill check can you Take 20 on then? Because every skill check, if you fail, is detrimental.

Skill examples you cannot Take 20 on: Climb, Jump, Craft... (things that have an inherent penalty for failure).

"Inherent penalty" would not include being found by someone. That is just normal failure.

So yes, you can Take 20 on a Hide check. You are just taking the extra time (2 minutes +) to be as well hidden as possible.

Take 20 on a search check = you don't find it ON THAT ATTEMPT. Since that's not a problem, since you can make another attempt, no problem.

Take 20 on a spot check = you don't see it ON THAT ATTEMPT. See above.

Take 20 on a use rope check to untie a knot = fine. You can always try again.

Take 20 on a hide check = you don't hide successfully ON THAT ATTEMPT. That means they spot you at first. You can keep trying to hide after they already spot you, but that's unlikely to help matters.

Theoretically, you could take 20 on a hide check before anyone is along to spot you. The question is whether you know when you've hidden well enough -- can you tell that you've found a perfect hiding spot? If not, you can't take 20, because you don't know when you've done the best job hiding: success on a hide check is determined by the opposed spot check, and absent that opposed spot check, you have no feedback to tell you that you've succeeded.

Generally, we don't allow it.
Daniel

 

[Corwin]

If you are setting up your Hide check, how do you determine whether there is even a chance for failure? This seems subjective to me. What if the only person in the area couldn't succeed in a Spot check even if you rolled a 1 on Hide? Then can you Take 20? Since now there is no chance for "failure"?

How's this:

I have a +20 Hide check. So I arrange for my dense friend Billy Bob and his cousins to walk by in a few minutes. Since Billy Bob and his cousins all have a Wis of 7 and no ranks in Spot, they max out on an 18. Now, since I cannot possibly fail to hide from them, I can proceed to Take 20. Once I'e spent the required 2 minutes perfecting my hiding spot, I am successfully ensconced and have a Hide of 40.

How was that?

That is why it is silly to me to think Take 20 is inappropriate since the implied failure is subjective and based on who may (or may not) by walking by at the time.

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

How about in this situation tho? Say that a bunch of Gobbos are trying to lay an ambush. They're standing watch at a geographic chokepoint and hide themselves in the bushes. Rolling a 1 doesn't guarantee failure, just a potentially low target # for the Spot check.

Hiding isn't like disabling a trap or trying to use a wand of fireballs by way of use magic device.