D&D General 5.5E--new edition or not?

[tetrasodium]

You’re argument fails for a couple of reasons:

• You cannot use the older Destiny 2 material alongside the updated.
• You’re not selling older versions
• Live services games have been around for over 20 years. The Ageist argument does not work.
• They tried the same models with 4e. It did not work there.
• A video game does it all under the hood. A player or DM can see the differences and can even see 5.0 and 5.5 content side by side.

I don't know many people who would consider destiny 2 an "mmo" ick a better example like an actual mmo and that problem goes away

World of Warcraft Classic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Acclaimed sci-fi MMORPG Anarchy Online reborn with classic server

18 years on and it gets a new server. Hat very much tipped.

pr.funcom.com

Edit: if it's still operating I think EverQuest even has one

 

[Belen]

Yeah you can... I can still play old expansions that havent been updated with my character using guns/armor/etc. that have


Again older expansions that haven't been updated are still sold.

Lol...so has diversity and fantasy fiction outside appendix N


Nope they didnt. They released what amounted to a secondary game...Essentials alongside the original 4e corebooks... not an updated version of original.

I can literally see the differences in Destiny 2 depending on which story expansion or mode I engage with.

So you can see all the changes in your character as it has been tweaked and optimized over time. No, you cannot see all of the underlying rules. You cannot see the code of those expansions either. You just see the effect since your character power level is based on different assumptions than older content.

I am not sure why people started talking about Appendix N all of a sudden but the strong ageism that has popped up more recently is just odd.

This ageist stuff did not seem to be a factor when other editions 3e, 4e popped.

The people who grew up with App N are in their 60s now. ENWorld may lean older but it was mainly centered around Gen X and Millennials who all were heavily invested in video games and adapting to change.

 

[Laurefindel]

A new version...of the same game. Im trying to process what that means exactly...and Im not sure I get it..

Haha! Well spotted!

This is actually WotC’s line about 5.5; “no no, it’s not a new edition, it’s a new version of the same game!”

Indeed it’s a lousy way of describing g things, especially when I’m trying to argue that 5.5 is not the same game as 5.0!

So let me start again. Destiny 2 is vastly different from when it was released. I’m taking your word for it; I’ve only seen my kids play Destiny 2. Yet, nobody is arguing that it is not Destiny 2, because it’s not different content (like Destiny 1, presumably), and not a different franchise (Halo series, let’s say). I don’t know what’s the current version of Destiny 2 but I beat it had several patches and updates over time; enough that I probably can’t play the original release even if I wanted to, and if I could, my version probably wouldn’t be compatible with yours (assuming you have the latest release version) and we couldn’t play together. Even if I don’t have to purchase all patches separately should I decide to buy the game today, Destiny 2 is a vastly different game from the original release. That may be considered the same game in the computer game world, but in TTRPG where every change must be implemented manually by the user (GM and players), a “vastly different version of the game” is called a new edition.

 

[Imaro]

So you can see all the changes in your character as it has been tweaked and optimized over time. No, you cannot see all of the underlying rules. You cannot see the code of those expansions either. You just see the effect since your character power level is based on different assumptions than older content.

Huh you cant see this on a D&D character... you could try to reverse engineer the changes... but then I can look at tge change log for Destiny 2 to see what's changed.

I am not sure why people started talking about Appendix N all of a sudden but the strong ageism that has popped up more recently is just odd.

Because the old guard/grognards are the usual suspects when it comes to arguing D&D has gotten worse ...and wanting it to go back to its old school roots and pulp(mainly white cis male written) fictional inspirations.

This ageist stuff did not seem to be a factor when other editions 3e, 4e popped.

Eh as D&D makes more strides to diversify it pops up more and more.

The people who grew up with App N are in their 60s now. ENWorld may lean older but it was mainly centered around Gen X and Millennials who all were heavily invested in video games and adapting to change.

Wearent talking about ENWorld specifically...or at leady I wasn't.

 

[Imaro]

Haha! Well spotted!

This is actually WotC’s line about 5.5; “no no, it’s not a new edition, it’s a new version of the same game!”

Indeed it’s a lousy way of describing g things, especially when I’m trying to argue that 5.5 is not the same game as 5.0!

So let me start again. Destiny 2 is vastly different from when it was released. I’m taking your word for it; I’ve only seen my kids play Destiny 2. Yet, nobody is arguing that it is not Destiny 2, because it’s not different content (like Destiny 1, presumably), and not a different franchise (Halo series, let’s say). I don’t know what’s the current version of Destiny 2 but I beat it had several patches and updates over time; enough that I probably can’t play the original release even if I wanted to, and if I could, my version probably wouldn’t be compatible with yours (assuming you have the latest release version) and we couldn’t play together. Even if I don’t have to purchase all patches separately should I decide to buy the game today, Destiny 2 is a vastly different game from the original release. That may be considered the same game in the computer game world, but in TTRPG where every change must be implemented manually by the user (GM and players), a “vastly different version of the game” is called a new edition.

So your argument seems to be a game cannot be updated, without becoming a new edition of the game... but again the very nature of a live service game goes against this presumption...in fact videogames as a whole go against this presumption since they are generally releasing patches and updates after a game is first released... is your argument every update, change, improvement, etc... introduced creates a new edition of the game?

 

[FitzTheRuke]

5.5 is definitely a new version of the same game as 5e.

It would be a new edition if D&D hadn't long, long ago, abandoned any meaning in that word.

But it's really very compatible. You really CAN run 5e characters at the same table as 5.5e ones - I've done it several times. You have to be really dialed into rules minutia to even notice it at the table.

OTOH, it helps to be clear and consistent.

Overall, I'm a little surprised that @Morrus is seeing such a drastic shift away 5e and toward 5.5. If polls and general talk around here was anything to go by, it would seem like only half the audience has "made the switch".

Morrus seems to have experienced a 100% switch. I would, at a guess, say that my store seems more like an 80% switch. With some crossover.

But if Morrus is seeing this phenomenon as extremely as he is, it's almost impossible to believe that WotC isn't seeing it in some similar form. Which means that their attempt to keep their back catalogue viable has, at least in part, failed.

Which would explain why they've opted to already start making "remake" books like Ravenloft, to the extent that it is, rather than waiting longer and doing more different things. I think we'll also see the 5e books go out of print sooner than they had originally planned (they may do another print of some of them, but I bet they'll start to disappear from shelves) and we'll probably see more "update" books, though I still expect that they will be adjacent copies (like Ravenloft) rather than exact duplicates with updates.

I guess we'll see.

 

[Retreater]

I haven't played 5.5 yet so I don't have a personal anecdote. Also, as a DM who rarely engaged with player facing rules, I likely wouldn't even notice that there are subtle changes.
I can say that the release of 5.5 has lined up with my utter lack of interest in anything WotC is doing.
When I was listening to SlyFlourish's advice and tried merging 5E (Eberron) with stuff from Level Up, we made a confusing mess that ended before 3rd level.
5E, 5.5, Tales of the Valiant, Level Up, etc, all being thrown into a blender seems a disaster waiting to happen.
Ultimately, it all feels like sticking a 32X and Sega CD on your Genesis to scrape out a little more processing power. Sometimes it's best to just keep what you loved the way it was or just move on to something new.

 

[the Jester]

But it's really very compatible. You really CAN run 5e characters at the same table as 5.5e ones - I've done it several times. You have to be really dialed into rules minutia to even notice it at the table.

The differences to healing alone make me disagree hard on this.

Healing has literally doubled in efficiency in 5.5.

That's not to mention all the other power creep with spells from acid splash to chromatic orb to... well, there are tons of examples. And the power creep in literally every character class. And the bizarre changes to creature types, and the complete rewrite of races-cum-ancestries, and the fact that everyone gets a feat at first level, and.... and... there's so much.

IMHO, 5.5 is a much larger change from 5.0 than 3.5e was from 3.0, or than Essentials was from baseline 4e. I would say that 3.5 material was far more backwards compatible with 3.0 stuff than 5.5 is with 5.0, and it was definitely a new game. (Essentials ran fine alongside 4e base material, on the other hand, and was much more an expansion on 4e rather than a rewrite.)

I won't allow much, if any, 5.5e stuff in my 5e games.

 

[VashVet]

So your argument seems to be a game cannot be updated, without becoming a new edition of the game... but again the very nature of a live service game goes against this presumption...in fact videogames as a whole go against this presumption since they are generally releasing patches and updates after a game is first released... is your argument every update, change, improvement, etc... introduced creates a new edition of the game?

They create new versions, certainly. New versions are typically free. Obviously you can’t do that with an offline TTRPG whether you call it an edition or a version change. Even with version updates of online games, the change can be so substantial that players are forced to update in order to play online with others, and there’s plenty of instances where people have shut off updates or disconnected from the platform in order to play offline because they didn’t want something to be nerfed - for all practical purposes, doesn’t that seem like a notable difference between versions (or editions) impacting players? I know there’s a few games that I stopped playing because because a patch changed my play experience enough that I was no longer willing to keep playing.

 

[DJ Shepard]

Thanks for sharing the anecdote! I’d actually been thinking about this the past week since the Mastering Dungeons podcast has been spotlighting each of the 5e long hardback adventures each week. Yet we do not yet have a similar adventure collection (or even an anthology) from WOTC for 5.5E. I wondered if perhaps this could be to try to continue selling the available copies of the back catalog, but based on your experience perhaps this isn’t the case or isn’t effective. But it makes me wonder what complete new comers to the game are playing? I grabbed a copy of the $20 starter set four years ago, but the new starter set seems less accessible on regular store shelves at least here in the U.S. Beyond that, the distribution deals to put things in retailers like Target still existed, so I grabbed the reprint of Tyranny of Dragons and other books early on.