D&D General [5E/5.5E] Why are Teleport and Plane Shift the Same Spell Level?

[Lanefan]

No other spell teaches you how to make the components. Why would Plane Shift be the exception without language stating it's an exception? The spell neither teaches you how to make the tuning forks, nor provides them to you. You have to find them somehow like you do with every other component that has a gold piece value.

It seems a bit odd, story/setting wise, that for something like this a deity would grant you the power to cast a spell without also providing you the means with which to do so.

 

[Lanefan]

Again, apples and drill bits. This is not an example of magically tuning a fork to a completely different plane of existence. This is not a musical note.

Because Tom, Dick and Harry commoner can make instruments. They cannot make tuning forks that are attuned to Carceri for 13th+ level spellcasters that are rare to find.

Again, 250gp in material value =/= 250gp for sale. Rarity matters. And even a specialized merchant wouldn't have enough customers to make it worthwhile, even if he could make them, which he can't. Spellcasters are rare. High level ones are very much rarer. At least in most settings. If you're playing in Glantri or old Netheril, things like this change.

While I usually agree with you, on this one I think you're being a bit too obstructionist to the players.

For one thing, 250 g.p. value does equal 250 g.p. for sale. If it didn't, the spell write-up would list a different value. The 250 is there as a flag to both DM and player that says nothing more than "To cast this spell, you gotta spend 250 clams on a tuning fork".

For another, given the spell is fairly common, one would think the tuning forks would be fairly common as well. Clerics often have temples, and said temples might even have gathered a collection of tuning forks for different planes over the years, to be loaned out to their Clerics as and when required.

Or, you could just drop the whole needs-a-tuning-fork idea completely; which is how I'd deal with it.

 

[Lanefan]

Planes are infinite, but deity domains are not. Just because you'd be welcome in your god's domain, doesn't mean that the rest of the plane would be welcoming or give a flying fig about who you worship. Heck, they may not have even heard of your god if your god dwells an 87,000 year walk from where you end up appearing.

We see planes differently, then. For me, each deity, or sometimes whole pantheon, has its own home plane (which can sometimes be quite small) and a Cleric to that deity can always safely get there via PS. I also don't subscribe to any sort of 'multiverse' theory - there's only one universe, and all the worlds, planes, etc. are contained within that universe.

Then again, I also have it that you need PS to in a single step get from one world to another on the Prime Material - I really should rename it to World Shift, I suppose - if for no other reason than PS builds in momentum change etc. that Teleport doesn't.

Think of trying to Teleport to the moon - by the time you've cast your spell the moon isn't where it was when you started, and is moving through space at a very high speed.....

 

[Maxperson]

It seems a bit odd, story/setting wise, that for something like this a deity would grant you the power to cast a spell without also providing you the means with which to do so.

That's what Commune is for.

But seriously, even if the deity tells you what material and the exact measurements for the fork, being able to make something without it being off by even a millimeter in any direction takes a ton of skill, and the typical cleric isn't going to have that.

 

[SkidAce]

Seems to me (not to offend anybody) that most of the discussion here is really setting and group based.

Higher magic settings might have major temples with sets of them, while other settings might not have any "readily" available.

And its also story based, not something that can be said to be true or false for any particular setting.

I reckon the closest you might get to a rule of thumb for frequency of tuning forks (frequency get it? haha) is that if a character has the spell available and uses it, that you probably should make at least a couple available to them, in some fashion (again difficulty is group / setting based and cant be said to be standard, or right or wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

While I usually agree with you, on this one I think you're being a bit too obstructionist to the players.

For one thing, 250 g.p. value does equal 250 g.p. for sale. If it didn't, the spell write-up would list a different value. The 250 is there as a flag to both DM and player that says nothing more than "To cast this spell, you gotta spend 250 clams on a tuning fork".

For another, given the spell is fairly common, one would think the tuning forks would be fairly common as well. Clerics often have temples, and said temples might even have gathered a collection of tuning forks for different planes over the years, to be loaned out to their Clerics as and when required.

Or, you could just drop the whole needs-a-tuning-fork idea completely; which is how I'd deal with it.

It really depends on how common spellcasters are. D&D currently assumes that they are relatively rare, and high level casters would be much rarer than that. Temples might have forks in their treasuries, but they most likely wouldn't be a store for selling them to the few high level casters who might, possibly, maybe seek them out to buy one.

Getting such a fork might be easy if the group gets lucky, but also might involve some sort of quest to find. It all depends on the campaign and other circumstances that have been going on. Maybe they have met a high level wizard willing to loan them his. Maybe not. Maybe he doesn't have one, but heard about a plane traveling wizard buried in a now ruined city.

 

[Maxperson]

We see planes differently, then. For me, each deity, or sometimes whole pantheon, has its own home plane (which can sometimes be quite small) and a Cleric to that deity can always safely get there via PS. I also don't subscribe to any sort of 'multiverse' theory - there's only one universe, and all the worlds, planes, etc. are contained within that universe.

Then again, I also have it that you need PS to in a single step get from one world to another on the Prime Material - I really should rename it to World Shift, I suppose - if for no other reason than PS builds in momentum change etc. that Teleport doesn't.

Think of trying to Teleport to the moon - by the time you've cast your spell the moon isn't where it was when you started, and is moving through space at a very high speed.....

I use the great wheel of old. The 7 Heavens are 7 layers that are all infinite. A deities domain might be 1000 miles around, smaller, or larger. It's not going to be the whole plane(layer), though, because there are many pantheons and gods for the many settings of the multiverse.

If I were to change it so that each god or pantheon had it's own private plane, then yes, most of the time the cleric would be welcome. Depends on the pantheon and/or god in question.

 

[tetrasodium]

It really depends on how common spellcasters are. D&D currently assumes that they are relatively rare, and high level casters would be much rarer than that. Temples might have forks in their treasuries, but they most likely wouldn't be a store for selling them to the few high level casters who might, possibly, maybe seek them out to buy one.

Getting such a fork might be easy if the group gets lucky, but also might involve some sort of quest to find. It all depends on the campaign and other circumstances that have been going on. Maybe they have met a high level wizard willing to loan them his. Maybe not. Maybe he doesn't have one, but heard about a plane traveling wizard buried in a now ruined city.

That's what Commune is for.

But seriously, even if the deity tells you what material and the exact measurements for the fork, being able to make something without it being off by even a millimeter in any direction takes a ton of skill, and the typical cleric isn't going to have that.

Why not just say "Hey Bob I don't like how that spell affects the game and don't want to let you buy one" instead of this endless chain of problems? It seems like Bob's PC needs to solve this endless chain of reasons why he cant get one like this that or the other here there or elsewhere as what is apparently the only spellcaster in the entire history of the setting to show interest in casting planeshift... When the fighter paladin rogue or whatever says "I've been saving for a while & want to see if I can find a magic version of my weapon/armor" does the player get sent out to dig a mine so they can harvest the raw iron they will smelt in the pit/bellows/bloomery forge they have to invent so they can smelt & so like a weaponsmithing Myne* on or do they just get one even if it involves the "ok lets go guys" hurdle of traveling to $otherCity?

*isekai Anime character who loves books & goes through significant trial & error on her way to inventing paper ink books & so on as a poor sickly peasant child after working through most of our own steps along the way, see link

@SkidAce oops quoted the wrong post

 

[SkidAce]

Why not just say "Hey Bob I don't like how that spell affects the game and don't want to let you buy one" instead of this endless chain of problems? It seems like Bob's PC needs to solve this endless chain of reasons why he cant get one like this that or the other here there or elsewhere as what is apparently the only spellcaster in the entire history of the setting to show interest in casting planeshift... When the fighter paladin rogue or whatever says "I've been saving for a while & want to see if I can find a magic version of my weapon/armor" does the player get sent out to dig a mine so they can harvest the raw iron they will smelt in the pit/bellows/bloomery forge they have to invent so they can smelt & so on or do they just get one even if it involves the "ok lets go guys" hurdle of traveling to $otherCity?

I dont quite understand your reply to me.

If saying "Hey Bob etc..." works for your group, that's fantastic. Carry on...

 

[SkidAce]

@SkidAce oops quoted the wrong post

Copy, no worries.