D&D General [5E/5.5E] Why are Teleport and Plane Shift the Same Spell Level?

[Maxperson]

Why not just say "Hey Bob I don't like how that spell affects the game and don't want to let you buy one" instead of this endless chain of problems?

Because that would be a lie. There are no endless problems or a desire for them not to have the fork. They just aren't going to be able to find one at the corner 7-11 like you guys seem to think they're for sale at.

It seems like Bob's PC needs to solve this endless chain of reasons why he cant get one like this that or the other here there or elsewhere as what is apparently the only spellcaster in the entire history of the setting to show interest in casting planeshift...

No. That's blatantly misstating what I have been saying. I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.

When the fighter paladin rogue or whatever says "I've been saving for a while & want to see if I can find a magic version of my weapon/armor" does the player get sent out to dig a mine so they can harvest the raw iron they will smelt in the pit/bellows/bloomery forge they have to invent so they can smelt & so like a weaponsmithing Myne* on or do they just get one even if it involves the "ok lets go guys" hurdle of traveling to $otherCity?

No, but it's exceedingly unlikely that they will be able to just go out and buy one. I don't do magic mart. Of course, he also is exceedingly unlikely to have failed to find magic arms and armor on a quest/adventure, so...

 

[tetrasodium]

Because that would be a lie. There are no endless problems or a desire for them not to have the fork. They just aren't going to be able to find one at the corner 7-11 like you guys seem to think they're for sale at.

Actually I think that it would be omething else entirely different and much worse for reasons I'll explain. Specifically it shows this tangent you've been arguing with multiple posters for (so far) 18 or so posts is simply poor communication taking the form of bad gm advice. Im usually the one getting shouted at for not automatically assuming the gm is in the wrong in these discussions, but I'll go on to exp why rather than just calling it bad gming or declaring the gm could easily do better and do it in the same session.

No. That's blatantly misstating what I have been saying. I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.

What you call a misstatement is nothing of the sort though, it's simply establishing a solid point of comparison for the discussion because both the reasons you've been giving for why a hypothetical player can't buy the tuning fork & the tuned tuning fork would need a magic mart in a world with no magic marts & no.

No, but it's exceedingly unlikely that they will be able to just go out and buy one. I don't do magic mart. Of course, he also is exceedingly unlikely to have failed to find magic arms and armor on a quest/adventure, so...

It really depends on how common spellcasters are. D&D currently assumes that they are relatively rare, and high level casters would be much rarer than that. Temples might have forks in their treasuries, but they most likely wouldn't be a store for selling them to the few high level casters who might, possibly, maybe seek them out to buy one.

Getting such a fork might be easy if the group gets lucky, but also might involve some sort of quest to find. It all depends on the campaign and other circumstances that have been going on. Maybe they have met a high level wizard willing to loan them his. Maybe not. Maybe he doesn't have one, but heard about a plane traveling wizard buried in a now ruined city.

When literally every class oozes magic from one or more subclasses, saying "d&d currently assumes [mages] are relatively rare" is quite the stretch, but that's a different subjective disagreement that mainly shows what "d&d currently" fails to provide Bob's hypothetical planeshift casting PC.

d&d is also currently without the semiquantum & endless array of specialized NPC classes 3.x had as well as the sages that ad&d2e dmg mentioned

Spoiler: refresher relevant dmg sections

Mainly including these because a lot of people never played those editions & it's been long enough that some of those who did may have forgotten but one actually mentions a 20th level blacksmith that makes it he perfect cherry from the 30$ jar of gourmet cherries on top

Spoiler: NPC classes

NPC CLASSES
The Player’s Handbook extensively describes adventurers. But what
about the rest of the world? Surely not everyone’s a fighter, rogue,
or wizard. Presented in this section are five classes specifically
designed for NPCs. None of them, with the possible exceptions of
the expert and the aristocrat, stands up as a playable class for PCs.
Instead, they represent the rest of the people in the world around
the PCs who don’t train to go on adventures and explore dungeons.
Treat these classes as you would any other. Their members get
feats every three levels and ability score increases every four levels
(see Table 3–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits on page
22 of the Player’s Handbook). Most NPCs take feats such as En-
durance, Skill Focus, Track, and other noncombat-related abilities.
It’s possible for NPCs to multiclass, and even to obtain levels in PC
classes if you so desire.
The level and class of an NPC give an indication of how well
that NPC knows his or her field. A typical blacksmith might only
be a 3rd-level commoner, but the world’s greatest blacksmith is
probably a 20th-level expert. That 20th-level character is a capable
person with great skill, but she can’t fight as well as a fighter equal
to her level (or even one much lower in level), nor can she cast
spells or do the other things that characters with PC class levels
can do.
NPCs gain experience points the same way that PCs do. Not
being adventurers, however, their opportunities are more limited.
Therefore, a commoner is likely to progress in levels very slowly.
Most commoners never attain higher than 2nd or 3rd level in
their whole lives. A warrior serving as a town guard is more likely
to earn XP here and there and thus might gain a few levels, but
this experience is still paltry compared to what an adventurer
gains. Keep in mind, though, that dangerous areas are more likely
to produce higher-level NPCs than peaceful, settled lands. A com-
moner who must regularly fight off gnolls trying to ransack his
farm or burn his crops is likely to be of higher level than one who
rarely encounters a challenge of this sort.
These NPC classes should provide enough distinction to create
anyone the PCs meet who isn’t an adventurer. See Total Characters
of Each Class, page 138, for information on how many characters
belonging to each of these NPC classes are found in a typical town
and their respective levels.
ADEPT
Some tribal societies or less sophisticated regions don’t have the
resources to train wizards and clerics. Reflecting a lesser knowl-
edge of magic yet an intriguing combination of arcane and divine
skills, the adept serves these cultures as both wise woman (or holy
man) and mystical defender.

I called the fact that the NPC class section mentions a 20th level blacksmith the gourmet cherry on top because it connects both the martial wanting the magic weapon/armor & Bob 's just wanting to find his PC a seemingly mundane spell component that "just needs to be tuned [like to the frequency or something]" as he too could visit the NPC tuning fork crafter levels who sells to the musician supplying merchant for a lead on the hyopthetical 20th level tuning fork crafter like the martial could on their way to the 20th level blacksmith. Both players could expect their respective contacted NPCs to be capable of producing a finished product or enough breakdrumbs to point them in the general direction of a quest they could go adventuring on for something close to the finished product.

Spoiler: sages

Sages
Unlike other expert hirelings, sages are experts in a single
field of academic study. They are most useful to player char-
acters in answering specific questions, solving riddles, or
deciphering ancient lore. They are normally hired on a one-
shot basis, to answer a single question or provide guidance
for a specific problem. A sage’s knowledge can be in any area
that fits within the limits of the campaign. Typical sage areas
are listed on Table 61.
Frequency is the chance of finding a sage with that par-
ticular skill in a large city—a university town of provincial capi-
tal, at least, Normally, sages do not reside in small villages or
well away from population centers. They require contact with
travelers and access to libraries in order to gain their informa-
tion. Roll for frequency only when you can’t decide if such a
sage is present. As always, consider the dramatic effect. Will
the services of a sage further the story in some exciting way?
Abilities and Limitations define specific limitations or
rules effects. If this column is blank, the sage’s knowledge is
generally thorough on all aspects of the topic. One race only
means the sage can answer questions that deal with a par-
ticular race. One region only limits his knowledge to a spe-
cific area—a kingdom or province. The size of the area
depends on the campaign. One plane limits the sage to the
study of creatures, conditions, and workings of a single
extra-dimensional plane. Where no limitations are given, the
sage is only limited by the current state of that science or art
in your campaign.
What does a sage know? A sage’s ability can be handled
in one of two ways. First, since the DM must answer the ques-
tion any way, he can simply decide if the sage knows the
answer. As usual, the consideration of what is best for the
story must be borne in mind.
If the player characters simply can’t proceed with the
adventure without this answer, then the sage knows the
answer. If the answer will reward clever players (for thinking
to hire a sage, for example) and will not destroy the adven-
ture, then the sage may know all or part of the answer. If
answering the question will completely unbalance the adven-
ture, the sage doesn’t know the answer.
Of course, there are times it is impossible to tell the effect of
knowing or not knowing something. In this case, the sage’s
answer can be determined by a proficiency check, modified by
the nature of the question. The DM can decide the sage’s ability
or use the following standard: Sage ability is equal to 14 plus
1d6 (this factors in his proficiency and normal ability scores).
If the proficiency check is passed (the number required, or
less, on 1d20), the sage provides an answer. If a die roll of 20
is made, the sage comes up with an incorrect answer. The
DM should create an incorrect answer that will be believable
and consistent with what the players already know about the
adventure.
Questions should be categorized as general (“What
types of beasts live in the Valley of Terror?”), specific (“Do
medusae live in the Valley of Terror?”), or exacting (“Does the
medusa Erinxyes live in the Valley of Terror?”). The precision
of the question modifies the chance of receiving an accurate
answer. Precision modifiers are listed on Table 62.
If a question is particularly complex, the DM can divide it
into several parts, each requiring a separate roll. Thus, a sage
may only know part of the information needed. This can be
very good for the story, especially if some key piece of infor-
mation is left out.
The resources required by a sage can be formidable. At
the very least, a sage must have access to a library of consid-
erable size to complete his work. He is not a walking encyclo-
pedia, able to spout facts on command. A sage answers
questions by having the right resources at hand and knowing
how to use them. The size and quality of the sage’s library
affect his chance of giving a correct answer.
This library can belong to the sage or can be part of an
institution. Monasteries and universities typically maintained
libraries in medieval times. If a personal library, it must be at
least 200 square feet of rare and exotic manuscripts, gener-
ally no less than 1,000 gp per book. If the library is connected
with an institution, the sage (or his employer) will be expected
to make appropriate payments or tithes for its use. Expenses
in the range of 1,000 gp a day could be levied against the
character. Of course, a sage can attempt to answer a question
with little or no library, but his chances of getting the right
answer will be reduced as given on Table 62.
Sages need time to find answers, sometimes more time
than a player character can afford. Player characters can attempt
to rush a sage in his work, but only at the risk of a wrong answer.
The normal length of time depends on the nature of the ques-
tion and is listed on Table 63. Player characters can reduce the
sage’s time by one category on this table, but the chance that
the sage’s answer will be incorrect or not available grows. These
modifiers are also listed on Table 62.

That sort of omission is critically relevant because Bob & the GM no longer have a tangible bit of ink on page that his PC could attempt to visit to potentially bridge the gap in communication & perhaps provide a breadcrumb or two pointing to some form of GMApproved questing. Bob tried special order from a specialty vendor with a supplier visiting a larger city visiting the inner city/noble's quarter & so on expecting that one of those would lead to some form of questing if needed & getting access to the inner city/noble's quarter very well may havedone some questing, but obviously those efforts were not even a step adjacent enough to where he could expect to find an NPC pointing at the metaphorical yellow exclamation mark wearing NPC who could start the adventure/questing trail for the tuned tuning fork.

Once they have it in ink & know it exists, both Bob & the GM have a structure they can reference for in character in game translation between intent & need through an NPC/assumed flavor of npc class✰ sporting NPC like the sage could be used as an in character action sourced loredump equivalent that could point Bob's PC towards the specific wizard the party may or may not have met... may or may not have considered.. or the specific ruined city that may not have left as clear of a mark in the group's notes/memory as the post 96 GM may or may not have mentioned ever since he recalled the GM saying "it just needs to be attuned [like the frequency or something]". Regardless of if the post 71 GM thinks that "magic items cannot just be purchased", Bob has been operating on the idea that a not-explicitly-magical tuning fork that "just needs to be tuned" & is no more magical than the incense that the post78 GM sells to the party's wizard sorcerer & sorlock by the pallet & rather than any of his attempts leading to any of the NPCs he's interacted with in his effort to buy a tuning fork that "just needs to be tuned" pointing towards a quest he needs an NPC class'ed sage or something to serve as a gm : player rosetta stone that d&d currently no longer provides assumes will exist.

✰ You created it yourself as hypothetical GM wtalking up the whole millimeter precision & extreme skill needed to craft one implies that there should be a specialized class or one at least adjacent enough to know something of use to Bob. It would be totally reasonable for Bob to assume such an npc class likely.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If you need somewhere safe to Plane Shift to, why not just go to your own deity's home plane? One would think you'd be welcome there, along with your companions if you're willing to vouch for them.

There are lots of potential safe places the party could go to if they put in the work and prepared it in advance. But attempting to plane shift in a panic without preparation is a good way to get in a worse situation than you were in before.

But given the number of atheists in my group, a deity’s home plane might not be very safe!

It’s also setting dependent. Eberron’s deities don’t have a home plane, Krynn’s are off limits, the gods of Athas are dead etc

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Really? You've never had a character that, once put in play, failed for whatever [mechanical, personality, story, etc.] reason to live up to the idea or concept you had for it going in?

No. I put a great deal of care into the characters I build, and there are a lot of things I can find enjoyable. A character who is simply made of solidified failium is not going to be enjoyable, period.

That makes you either insanely lucky or - more likely - way more willing than you give yourself credit for to adapt when things don't work out in order to make them work.

I can adapt, yes. I cannot adapt around "your characters will be taken from you on the regular". It disrupts my ability to care about the game, because my place in it cannot ever become anything. It is always being thrown around haphazardly with no rhyme or reason, just "the dice decided you die now, sorry!" I can't engage like that. I can't get my bearings. I can't care about things I'm not able to invest into, and I can't invest into a character that I know without doubt WILL be killed, and thus taken from me--and not only that, but they're probably going to be taken pretty soon, too.

Me, I'm not that stubborn - if a character's not working out for some reason, I'll gladly let it go and try another. I just don't take it that seriously.

I do. Pretending that nobody can take the game more seriously than you is foolish. You aren't a fool, so I don't really believe you think everyone treats the game exactly as unseriously as you do.

If you're playing solo with a DM then sure, go nuts on the individual-character story arcs. But - as I keep being told - when there's multiple players D&D is a group game, therefore doesn't it just make sense that the story of the group/party as a whole should take priority over, or even shunt aside, that of any one individual character?

For the same reason you are comfortable with one character being more important than another mechanically--but only temporarily. That's still true, yes? You do still think "spotlight" balance is a good thing? Because if you do, then it's exactly the same concept applied to narrative. Sometimes, it really is the case that the whole group sets aside what they're doing to help Dodec O'Hedron save his little sister Tetra, because even if half of them don't like kids, they do like Dodec, and they know how important family is to him. Sometimes, it really is the case that Dodec O'Hedron needs to get his family drama figured out because right now we're kind of saving the world and taking a quick family vacation merely on a weird dream he had is not sufficient reason to break from that.

Or, as I've told you at least once before: The group story is woven from the individual stories. If the individual story is always suppressed beneath the group story, then both stories disappear in a puff of logic, the would-be fabric having cut its own strings off the loom before it could be woven. Just as if the individual story is always prioritized over the group story, then both stories disappear in a puff of logic because the threads are never woven together to begin with.

For the vast majority of D&D groups, that ongoing back-and-forth between favoring things that the whole group is seeking, and favoring things that just one particular person is seeking, matters a great deal. Consider for my Monday group: my Sorcerer is an aristocratic dragonborn whose family is among the more...open-minded clans of Tymanther. His wicked sister has committed outright, full-on blasphemy as far as his people are concerned, swearing her loyalty to Tiamat--and she sold him into drow slavery to boot. He's out for revenge, but the slow, quiet kind of revenge where you destroy a person utterly, so one of his personal goals throughout Out of the Abyss has been to subvert his sister's own mercenaries against her. He has shown, tirelessly, that their lives truly matter to him--that he'll risk his own skin in order to protect them, and if one of them dies, he'll make sure they get resurrected.

Because one day, he wants to look them in the eye and say, "Would my sister fight for you as I have?" And have them realize that they've been his mercenaries for months now, and only just figured that out.

That is a personal story, woven through the campaign. It's not a story that requires constant attention on it. In fact, I've kept it pretty limited and have not tried to call attention to it. But whenever one of them dies, I make sure they're revived. Whenever one of them gets separated, Kalthor goes after them personally. When they fight with us in battle, Kalthor respects their skills, trusts them to do their jobs, and rewards them as much as he's able. That's me telling my story within, around, and between the other stories going on. Without that story, I'd have no reason to really care except "world-ending threat". Without the world-ending threat, this personal story would have no engine to push it toward conclusion. It's only in the intersection of personal story AND group story AND caring about others' personal stories that I find the real beauty I'm looking for.

 

[Maxperson]

What you call a misstatement is nothing of the sort though, it's simply establishing a solid point of comparison for the discussion because both the reasons you've been giving for why a hypothetical player can't buy the tuning fork & the tuned tuning fork would need a magic mart in a world with no magic marts & no.

I don't know what you are trying to say here.

When literally every class oozes magic from one or more subclasses, saying "d&d currently assumes [mages] are relatively rare" is quite the stretch, but that's a different subjective disagreement that mainly shows what "d&d currently" fails to provide Bob's hypothetical planeshift casting PC.

It's not only not a stretch, it's flat out said on page 9 of the 5e DMG under Core Assumptions.

"Practitioners of magic are relatively few in number, but they leave evidence of their craft everywhere." When there are few of something(spellcasters) in a world with lots(non-spellcasters), that's rare.

And on page 23 under Magic in Your World.

"What normal folk know of magic depends on where they live and whether they know characters who practice magic. Citizens of an isolated hamlet might not have seen true magic used for generations and speak in whispers of the strange powers of the old hermit living in the nearby woods."

Is spellcasters were common, it wouldn't take generations for someone, even in an isolated hamlet, to see some sort of magic from something.

You can of course change those Core Assumptions for your personal setting, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.

I called the fact that the NPC class section mentions a 20th level blacksmith the gourmet cherry on top because it connects both the martial wanting the magic weapon/armor & Bob 's just wanting to find his PC a seemingly mundane spell component that "just needs to be tuned [like to the frequency or something]" as he too could visit the NPC tuning fork crafter levels who sells to the musician supplying merchant for a lead on the hyopthetical 20th level tuning fork crafter like the martial could on their way to the 20th level blacksmith. Both players could expect their respective contacted NPCs to be capable of producing a finished product or enough breakdrumbs to point them in the general direction of a quest they could go adventuring on for something close to the finished product.

There isn't an NPC tuning crafter, because there aren't enough spellcasters that are 1) high enough level to cast plane shift, and 2) who would want to go to another plane as they are far more dangerous than the prime. Someone who goes into business hoping that someone comes by every year or two to buy something so highly specialized, goes out of business before he gets a customer. At least if he charges 250gp and not something like 25,000gp. And even if someone did go into that business at 25k a fork, the world still couldn't support more than 1 or 2 of those people, so the city the PCs happen to be in is unlikely to have that person.

That sort of omission is critically relevant because Bob & the GM no longer have a tangible bit of ink on page that his PC could attempt to visit to potentially bridge the gap in communication & perhaps provide a breadcrumb or two pointing to some form of GMApproved questing. Bob tried special order from a specialty vendor with a supplier visiting a larger city visiting the inner city/noble's quarter & so on expecting that one of those would lead to some form of questing if needed & getting access to the inner city/noble's quarter very well may havedone some questing, but obviously those efforts were not even a step adjacent enough to where he could expect to find an NPC pointing at the metaphorical yellow exclamation mark wearing NPC who could start the adventure/questing trail for the tuned tuning fork.

I mean, groups pretty easily think to go to Candle Keep or a different setting's equivalent location, as well as a host of other good ideas. You're selling players short there.

Quite frankly, the bolded is one of the worst problems in D&D. People are being encouraged to only be able to think of what they can find written in the books and not actually use their brains to have ideas of their own. Anything I can do to encourage player creativity is a good thing.

Remember, I'm not looking to say now as I don't really care if they have the tuning fork or not. I just 1) want however they find it to fit the fiction that spellcasters are rare, and high level casters far rarer than that, and 2) fit the fiction that the spell requires a very specific tool that few would possess.

Once they have it in ink & know it exists, both Bob & the GM have a structure they can reference for in character in game translation between intent & need through an NPC/assumed flavor of npc class✰ sporting NPC like the sage could be used as an in character action sourced loredump equivalent that could point Bob's PC towards the specific wizard the party may or may not have met... may or may not have considered.. or the specific ruined city that may not have left as clear of a mark in the group's notes/memory as the post 96 GM may or may not have mentioned ever since he recalled the GM saying "it just needs to be attuned [like the frequency or something]".

I mean, they know it exists because the spell says it's needed. After that all they need is a modicum of creativity to come up with an idea or two on how to find one.

Regardless of if the post 71 GM thinks that "magic items cannot just be purchased", Bob has been operating on the idea that a not-explicitly-magical tuning fork that "just needs to be tuned" & is no more magical than the incense that the post78 GM sells to the party's wizard sorcerer & sorlock by the pallet & rather than any of his attempts leading to any of the NPCs he's interacted with in his effort to buy a tuning fork that "just needs to be tuned" pointing towards a quest he needs an NPC class'ed sage or something to serve as a gm : player rosetta stone that d&d currently no longer provides assumes will exist.

It doesn't "just need to be tuned" as if it's a simple as tuning a fork to C or G on the music scale. The guy who sells bat guano and sulfur isn't going to know how to tune a fork to the 77th layer of the Abyss.

 

[Maxperson]

I can adapt, yes. I cannot adapt around "your characters will be taken from you on the regular". It disrupts my ability to care about the game, because my place in it cannot ever become anything. It is always being thrown around haphazardly with no rhyme or reason, just "the dice decided you die now, sorry!" I can't engage like that. I can't get my bearings. I can't care about things I'm not able to invest into, and I can't invest into a character that I know without doubt WILL be killed, and thus taken from me--and not only that, but they're probably going to be taken pretty soon, too.

Same here. While I very much enjoyed 1e, I didn't invest in my characters like I do now, because they died to often. It wasn't until I found a 2e DM who didn't kill off PCs left and right. PC deaths happened, but they were not common, so I could invest in the characters. 3e and 5e made that more the norm, so being able to invest in my characters remained.

For the same reason you are comfortable with one character being more important than another mechanically--but only temporarily. That's still true, yes? You do still think "spotlight" balance is a good thing? Because if you do, then it's exactly the same concept applied to narrative. Sometimes, it really is the case that the whole group sets aside what they're doing to help Dodec O'Hedron save his little sister Tetra, because even if half of them don't like kids, they do like Dodec, and they know how important family is to him. Sometimes, it really is the case that Dodec O'Hedron needs to get his family drama figured out because right now we're kind of saving the world and taking a quick family vacation merely on a weird dream he had is not sufficient reason to break from that.

This.

Consider for my Monday group: my Sorcerer is an aristocratic dragonborn whose family is among the more...open-minded clans of Tymanther. His wicked sister has committed outright, full-on blasphemy as far as his people are concerned, swearing her loyalty to Tiamat--and she sold him into drow slavery to boot. He's out for revenge, but the slow, quiet kind of revenge where you destroy a person utterly, so one of his personal goals throughout Out of the Abyss has been to subvert his sister's own mercenaries against her. He has shown, tirelessly, that their lives truly matter to him--that he'll risk his own skin in order to protect them, and if one of them dies, he'll make sure they get resurrected.

Because one day, he wants to look them in the eye and say, "Would my sister fight for you as I have?" And have them realize that they've been his mercenaries for months now, and only just figured that out.

That is a personal story, woven through the campaign. It's not a story that requires constant attention on it. In fact, I've kept it pretty limited and have not tried to call attention to it. But whenever one of them dies, I make sure they're revived. Whenever one of them gets separated, Kalthor goes after them personally. When they fight with us in battle, Kalthor respects their skills, trusts them to do their jobs, and rewards them as much as he's able. That's me telling my story within, around, and between the other stories going on. Without that story, I'd have no reason to really care except "world-ending threat". Without the world-ending threat, this personal story would have no engine to push it toward conclusion. It's only in the intersection of personal story AND group story AND caring about others' personal stories that I find the real beauty I'm looking for.

I love it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Generally, in order to tune something, you would have to first know the correct frequency to tune it to.

 

[Maxperson]

Generally, in order to tune something, you would have to first know the correct frequency to tune it to.

Up through 3e, forks were attuned by being made of a specific metal with a very specific shape that keyed it to a plane and if the plane had layers, a specific layer of that plane. So the fork for the 312th layer of the Abyss might be made out of nickel, have a shaft that is 8 and 9/16 of an inch long, and 1/32 of an inch in diameter, shaped like a triangle, the first tine of the fork might be hexagonal, 1 inch at the base and tapering off at a very specific rate to 1/4 of an inch at the top, and 12 inches long, with the second tine being round and 1/10 of an inch in diameter for the entire 3 and 3/4 inch length. If any of those things is even a little off, it fails to be attuned to that layer.

It is not easy to find out exactly what you need and then build it to exacting detail.

I don't know how 4e did it, but 5e just left it at, "attuned to the plane," which leaves it to the DM to figure out what is meant by that.

 

[tetrasodium]

Wow....

It doesn't "just need to be tuned" as if it's a simple as tuning a fork to C or G on the music scale. The guy who sells bat guano and sulfur isn't going to know how to tune a fork to the 77th layer of the Abyss.

...

Where are you getting that from? I don't see anything that implies that the tuning fork is from the plane in question. I just see that it needs to be attuned, like being made at the "frequency" of a particular plane or something similar.

I think that the hypothetical players might need the NPC to communicate the GM's snipe hunt for them rather than the gm using the contracted NPC to communicate to them in more ways than I expected, here i was using them for when a mere skill check wasn't enough and research their PCs couldn't participate in would be unproductively boring for most of the table. The rest of your post has gone from they must remember a particular wizard realize he's relevant and use him to find a particular ruined city to knowing the setting lore written in a book somewhere well enough to....

I mean, groups pretty easily think to go to Candle Keep or a different setting's equivalent location, as well as a host of other good ideas. You're selling players short there.

Quite frankly, the bolded is one of the worst problems in D&D. People are being encouraged to only be able to think of what they can find written in the books and not actually use their brains to have ideas of their own. Anything I can do to encourage player creativity is a good thing.

You are literally ignoring that we are talking about a hypothetical player effectively saying "my character wants to seek out an NPC who i expect to have relevant skills/knowledge that would guide me in the right direction" after trying a local specialty merchant, an upscale specialty merchant in the nobles quarter/inner city in a larger city and the upscale noble's quarter specialty merchant's supplier, and possiyone or more temples expected to have reason for having such a tuning fork is "relying on what they can find written in the books" but it's not "relying on what they can find written in the books" to know what is written in the drizzt books well enough to know that the specific city they needed to travel to was candlekeep rather than a larger city with an inner city/noble's quarter

Remember, I'm not looking to say now as I don't really care if they have the tuning fork or not. I just 1) want however they find it to fit the fiction that spellcasters are rare, and high level casters far rarer than that, and 2) fit the fiction that the spell requires a very specific tool that few would possess.

I mean, they know it exists because the spell says it's needed. After that all they need is a modicum of creativity to come up with an idea or two on how to find one.


It doesn't "just need to be tuned" as if it's a simple as tuning a fork to C or G on the music scale. The guy who sells bat guano and sulfur isn't going to know how to tune a fork to the 77th layer of the Abyss.

Buuuuut candle keep may or may not have a clue either. This is like god tier where's Waldo. If only one of the multiple NPCs they visited could have communicated a need for the players to get in touch with a particular sort of specialist NPC in all of the places that they thought to look that the players could have made clear they were hoping to find rather than hoping to divine the correct city correct district of that city correct organization within that specific city district and the correct NPC wizard by pure random chance.

 

[Maxperson]

I think that the hypothetical players might need the NPC to communicate the GM's snipe hunt for them rather than the gm using the contracted NPC to communicate to them in more ways than I expected, here i was using them for when a mere skill check wasn't enough and research their PCs couldn't participate in would be unproductively boring for most of the table. The rest of your post has gone from they must remember a particular wizard realize he's relevant and use him to find a particular ruined city to knowing the setting lore written in a book somewhere well enough to....

Buuuuut candle keep may or may not have a clue either. This is like god tier where's Waldo. If only one of the multiple NPCs they visited could have communicated a need for the players to get in touch with a particular sort of specialist NPC in all of the places that they thought to look that the players could have made clear they were hoping to find rather than hoping to divine the correct city correct district of that city correct organization within that specific city district and the correct NPC wizard by pure random chance.

The bolded indicates that 1) you don't know what I am actually saying, and 2) that you really have no intention of trying to understand what I'm saying. If either one of those were not true, you wouldn't be trying to paint it with such negative language. There's really no point in continuing.

P.S. If you really want to know where Waldo is, look on the U.S. soccer team. He's probably there.