D&D General [5E/5.5E] Why are Teleport and Plane Shift the Same Spell Level?

[tetrasodium]

Up through 3e, forks were attuned by being made of a specific metal with a very specific shape that keyed it to a plane and if the plane had layers, a specific layer of that plane. So the fork for the 312th layer of the Abyss might be made out of nickel, have a shaft that is 8 and 9/16 of an inch long, and 1/32 of an inch in diameter, shaped like a triangle, the first tine of the fork might be hexagonal, 1 inch at the base and tapering off at a very specific rate to 1/4 of an inch at the top, and 12 inches long, with the second tine being round and 1/10 of an inch in diameter for the entire 3 and 3/4 inch length. If any of those things is even a little off, it fails to be attuned to that layer.

It is not easy to find out exactly what you need and then build it to exacting detail.

I don't know how 4e did it, but 5e just left it at, "attuned to the plane," which leaves it to the DM to figure out what is meant by that.

Would that be the "prior to 3e" editions that had things like the sage & well...

Spoiler: this?

Oh look, there's that sage again. Since it's mentioned there though, spell research was covered on DMG 64-65 & on PHB page 113 along with several other points in the phb saying the DM has rules for spell research & magic item creation.

Also this is weirdly specific, where on earth are you getting it from?

Up through 3e, forks were attuned by being made of a specific metal with a very specific shape that keyed it to a plane and if the plane had layers, a specific layer of that plane. So the fork for the 312th layer of the Abyss might be made out of nickel, have a shaft that is 8 and 9/16 of an inch long, and 1/32 of an inch in diameter, shaped like a triangle, the first tine of the fork might be hexagonal, 1 inch at the base and tapering off at a very specific rate to 1/4 of an inch at the top, and 12 inches long, with the second tine being round and 1/10 of an inch in diameter for the entire 3 and 3/4 inch length. If any of those things is even a little off, it fails to be attuned to that layer.

It is not easy to find out exactly what you need and then build it to exacting detail.

I don't know how 4e did it, but 5e just left it at, "attuned to the plane," which leaves it to the DM to figure out what is meant by that.

Since That's a page from ad&d2e which is very much "prior to 3e" & I can't recall ever seeing this level of specificity outside of a novel perhaps.

 

[Mecheon]

It is not easy to find out exactly what you need and then build it to exacting detail.

Once you've figured out what you need, though, that's stuff that could be written down or otherwise transmitted. As far as magical items go, planer tuning forks seem among the easier magical goods to mass produce, though I'd generally slot that into a 'planer travel used to be more common' type of past or limited to areas where planer travel is more expected. Easy weird loot drops for ancient magical empires, though

Mind, my planer cosmology goes a bit Weird as I got bored with how same-y some of the stock standard deity-orientated planes are, plus I kind of love Myst. So, y'know, might come across a planer tuning fork and you might end up on one of the familiar realms. Orrr end up in some ancient, forgotten long-dead desert plane that's disintegrating beneath your feet because some mage tried to write it into existence and did not do a good job at all.

some old pals of mine did a Minecraft Mystcraft world waaaay back and I ended up the book keeper, just. Writing weird and mysterious planes to delve into. Miss that old mod but I just kept its thematic ideas around in cosmology

 

[Maxperson]

Also this is weirdly specific, where on earth are you getting it from?

It's in the spell write up from the first 3 editions. You need the material and exact shape, and since there are like 700 planes/layers or something, that's a lot of very exact shapes.

"The material component of this spell is a small, forked metal rod-the exact size and metal type dictating to which plane of existence (including sub-planes and alternate dimensions) the spell sends the affected creatures."

 

[nevin]

I look at the trio of long-range teleportation spells and see an obvious escalation of power between them.

Teleportation Circle: Reliable, but slow and limited. Requires a full round and a costed material component (50 GP of gem chalk/special ink) to cast and can only go to permanent circles you know the glyph sequence for (which you learn two of with the spell). But it will get you to that circle with no chance of mishaps.

Teleport: Less stable, but quicker and more free-form. It’s instantaneous, only has a verbal component, and can take you anywhere on the Material Plane (which could mean just your current world or ANY world in the universe or even most of the MULTIverse, depending on your definition of “Material Plane). But it’s more prone to error. You need either to be REALLY good at visualizing your destination, have an item from the destination taken in the last six months (eg: a stone, a piece of masonry, a knickknack off of a shelf, etc.), or the glyph sequence from a permanent teleportation circle at or near the destination. Otherwise, you’ll risk ending up somewhere completely off course.

Plane Shift: Powerful, but highly specialized: It’s still instantaneous, but now needs EVEN-HIGHER costed material components (250 GP tuning fork) and can only take you anywhere OTHER than the Material Plane. But it WILL get you there, as long as you have an exact location in mind. You can also aim at a permanent teleportation circle off-plane, if you know it’s glyph sequence.

The thing I find odd is that Teleport and Plane Shift are both 7th level, while Teleportation Circle is 5th Level. I feel like a caster should gain access to these spells at a steadier rate.

My solution would be to either bump Teleport down to 6th Level, so a caster gains new capabilities each spell level, or bump Plane Shift up to 8th Level, gaining those capabilities every other level.

But perhaps that would be unbalanced, somehow? What do everyone else think?

I think plane shift and teleportion circle should be Rituals. I also think more GM's should require Pc's to negotiate with outsiders via planar summoning spells to get the Forks needed for the various planes. This give players more options as they get higher level summonings adding the growth at level feeling and giveing the GM some control over how fast to allow Plane shift to various planes to match the flow of the stories. I think permanent teleportations circles should be expensive to build and require maintenance other than that I think the spell is fine as is.

 

[nevin]

It's in the spell write up from the first 3 editions. You need the material and exact shape, and since there are like 700 planes/layers or something, that's a lot of very exact shapes.

"The material component of this spell is a small, forked metal rod-the exact size and metal type dictating to which plane of existence (including sub-planes and alternate dimensions) the spell sends the affected creatures."

and if I remember correctly it has to be attuned to the plane over a 24 hour process on that plane. So I think the assumption was always using summoning spells to make deals with outsiders to get them. Though I could be mistakenly throwing some PF1e stuff in that.

 

[Lanefan]

It's not only not a stretch, it's flat out said on page 9 of the 5e DMG under Core Assumptions.

"Practitioners of magic are relatively few in number, but they leave evidence of their craft everywhere." When there are few of something(spellcasters) in a world with lots(non-spellcasters), that's rare.

In the real world, practitioners of medicine (i.e. doctors) are relatively few in number and yet there's still quite a lot of 'em, and people in hamlets are familiar with what they are and what they do.

And on page 23 under Magic in Your World.

"What normal folk know of magic depends on where they live and whether they know characters who practice magic. Citizens of an isolated hamlet might not have seen true magic used for generations and speak in whispers of the strange powers of the old hermit living in the nearby woods."

Is spellcasters were common, it wouldn't take generations for someone, even in an isolated hamlet, to see some sort of magic from something.

Keep in mind this passage is just a suggestion, an idea for a DM new to worldbuilding. It's not a hard-coded rule, and quoting it as if it is doesn't really achieve anything.

There isn't an NPC tuning crafter, because there aren't enough spellcasters that are 1) high enough level to cast plane shift, and 2) who would want to go to another plane as they are far more dangerous than the prime. Someone who goes into business hoping that someone comes by every year or two to buy something so highly specialized, goes out of business before he gets a customer. At least if he charges 250gp and not something like 25,000gp. And even if someone did go into that business at 25k a fork, the world still couldn't support more than 1 or 2 of those people, so the city the PCs happen to be in is unlikely to have that person.

This assumes the person's only activity and-or source of income is crafting these tuning forks. An artificer might craft tuning forks on commission as one of many different things she makes and sells; and (to drag in RAW) as 5e doesn't have any concept of item destruction, once it's made it'll last forever.

Quite frankly, the bolded is one of the worst problems in D&D. People are being encouraged to only be able to think of what they can find written in the books and not actually use their brains to have ideas of their own. Anything I can do to encourage player creativity is a good thing.

Agreed.

That said, if something turns out to be common enough that every DM eventually ends up having to rule on it anyway, sticking it in the books is probably a good idea.

It doesn't "just need to be tuned" as if it's a simple as tuning a fork to C or G on the music scale. The guy who sells bat guano and sulfur isn't going to know how to tune a fork to the 77th layer of the Abyss.

This is what makes the whole tuning fork idea fall apart IMO: having to have a different one for every plane.

Edit to add: 1e as written has the different fork for each plane concept (but no cost listed of any kind, it's left up to the DM how available these forks are), we long ago ditched that in favour of having the component just be a reusable forked metal rod that works for wherever you want to go, in order to make the spell actually useful.

 

[Maxperson]

and if I remember correctly it has to be attuned to the plane over a 24 hour process on that plane. So I think the assumption was always using summoning spells to make deals with outsiders to get them. Though I could be mistakenly throwing some PF1e stuff in that.

None of the spells say that in their respective PHBs. It could have been an optional rule in an Unearthed Arcana or in one of the Magic User/Wizard splatbooks, though. I don't remember ever seeing it, but I didn't see all the books from 1e and 2e that dealt with spellcasters.

 

[Maxperson]

In the real world, practitioners of medicine (i.e. doctors) are relatively few in number and yet there's still quite a lot of 'em, and people in hamlets are familiar with what they are and what they do.

100%. However.................................there are only a small handful of top surgeons and specialists, which would be the equivalent of a 13th+ level spellcaster.

Using the 3.5e demographics, any community that is smaller than a large city will not have any NPC above 12th level, so nobody can cast planeshift. A large city will get 3 rolls for each class and each one has a 50/50 shot of being 13th level or higher, so the average will be 3 clerics or wizards of high enough level to cast the spell, but none guaranteed to have the spell or necessarily ever want to go to another plane, so it's unlikely that even a large city will have someone with tuning fork or would be a customer for the artificer you mentioned. A metropolis will have 4 13th+ casters of each type, so 8 clerics and/or wizards high enough to cast the spell, but still no guarantee that any of them needed or wanted to go plane traveling.

Keep in mind this passage is just a suggestion, an idea for a DM new to worldbuilding. It's not a hard-coded rule, and quoting it as if it is doesn't really achieve anything.

Only in the sense that 100% of the rules are merely suggestions, which means that it's not at all helpful in a discussion like this one. It's written as the default assumption of 5e, so it's that way unless the DM goes out of his way to change it for his personal setting. In a general discussion about spellcasters such as this one, it's the default that is the go to, not what you do in your personal home game.

This assumes the person's only activity and-or source of income is crafting these tuning forks. An artificer might craft tuning forks on commission as one of many different things she makes and sells; and (to drag in RAW) as 5e doesn't have any concept of item destruction, once it's made it'll last forever.

And what are the odds that out of the 700+ different tuning forks, he's going to happen to 1) know the fork you need, and 2) want to have 250+gp as a sunk cost sitting on his shelf for the years it would probably take for a high level spellcaster to actually want to go to the 6th layer of Hell where the MacGuffin is? Using the demographics above, he may not have more than 1 or 2 customers over the course of several major cities and/or metropolises, and even then those 1 or 2 might find a different way to get a tuning fork. It would be silly to invest in tuning forks that are going to sit there probably for years or possibly forever. Merchants want to make money fairly quickly.

This isn't going to be corner store stuff. It's going to take effort to find someone who knows how to make that fork or has one laying around for sale.

Agreed.

That said, if something turns out to be common enough that every DM eventually ends up having to rule on it anyway, sticking it in the books is probably a good idea.

It's not a problem, though. This isn't some super hard balance issue that the DM has to consider and work at a solution on. The DM just needs to spend a few seconds or minutes coming up with something, or more likely, just lets the players come up with ideas that could work(and they will come up with several) and go with one or more of those.

This is what makes the whole tuning fork idea fall apart IMO: having to have a different one for every plane.

Not really. If you look at the planes as they were created to be, the PCs aren't supposed to ever be able to get there. The outer planes are all heaven/hell equivalents, so would be like you or me showing up in the afterlife before we die. The astral is the backdrop of the universe. The inner planes the building blocks of the material plane. And so on.

That the gods and clever mortal have allowed/devised ways around the multiverses inherent limitations doesn't change that. It's supposed to be hard to get to those planes and even the work around of Plane Shift can only do so much to avoid the difficulty.

In my opinion traveling to another plane should entail more than, "Hey guys. Let's take a jaunt over to Limbo today. Last week's trip to the 1st Heaven was boring!"

 

[Mecheon]

Not really. If you look at the planes as they were created to be, the PCs aren't supposed to ever be able to get there. The outer planes are all heaven/hell equivalents, so would be like you or me showing up in the afterlife before we die. The astral is the backdrop of the universe. The inner planes the building blocks of the material plane. And so on.

That the gods and clever mortal have allowed/devised ways around the multiverses inherent limitations doesn't change that. It's supposed to be hard to get to those planes and even the work around of Plane Shift can only do so much to avoid the difficulty.

In my opinion traveling to another plane should entail more than, "Hey guys. Let's take a jaunt over to Limbo today. Last week's trip to the 1st Heaven was boring!"

Eh, I disagree with this. Mind, the Outer planes didn't get introduced to much later, but Companion Set included a whole bunch of stuff of going to the elemental planes and rules on how to travel there, plus established the Ethereal's bits and bobs. Don't forget the whole Other Planes monster list in the same book, clearly intended for planeswalking adventures given the majority of the creatures there had notes about rarely being found outside of the elemental planes. The Outer planes themselves are inspired primarily by an old Dragon adventure that pound for pound just gave us Asgard

Just, y'know, took until Planescape to actually give a reason to go out to them.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

Not really. If you look at the planes as they were created to be, the PCs aren't supposed to ever be able to get there. The outer planes are all heaven/hell equivalents, so would be like you or me showing up in the afterlife before we die. The astral is the backdrop of the universe. The inner planes the building blocks of the material plane. And so on.

What do you mean by 'created to be'? If we look back at the 1st edition, plane shift was a 5th level spell, Amulet of the Planes was a regular magic item, and the DMG talks rather casually about using those to travel to other planes, and even the PHB has rules . I think it's a little silly to say that players weren't intended to ever get to other planes when the rules include a variety of ways to get there, specific mention of what items don't work and don't work, and special rules of combat for other planes. I think if the base game includes rules for doing stuff, especially in the player-only book, it's silly to say that players in the game were never intended to do that stuff.

In my opinion traveling to another plane should entail more than, "Hey guys. Let's take a jaunt over to Limbo today. Last week's trip to the 1st Heaven was boring!"

That's been part of high level D&D since at least 1978, the main difference is that plane shift is moved to a 7th level spell instead of 5th which it was in 1e so it's arguable that plane shifting is more difficult now. You can run a campaign however you want, but it's not accurate to paint your preference as the original intent when it's pretty clear that the game has considered PC planar travel a normal part of the game since it was codified into hardback books.