D&D General [5E/5.5E] Why are Teleport and Plane Shift the Same Spell Level?

[Maxperson]

Eh, I disagree with this. Mind, the Outer planes didn't get introduced to much later, but Companion Set included a whole bunch of stuff of going to the elemental planes and rules on how to travel there, plus established the Ethereal's bits and bobs. Don't forget the whole Other Planes monster list in the same book, clearly intended for planeswalking adventures given the majority of the creatures there had notes about rarely being found outside of the elemental planes. The Outer planes themselves are inspired primarily by an old Dragon adventure that pound for pound just gave us Asgard

Just, y'know, took until Planescape to actually give a reason to go out to them.

I'm not sure we disagree exactly. I agree that adventuring on the planes is intended, but the construction of the planes indicates that in the fiction it wasn't. We of course are playing outside of the fiction and planar adventures are fun! I'm saying that getting to the planes isn't supposed to be as easy as going to the corner store and getting a soda and chips. Getting to the planar adventure location should be part of the quest itself. It doesn't have to be a terribly arduous ordeal, but it should often involve at least some amount of effort on the part of the PCs. Circumstances of game play will of course alter that quite a bit.

Planescape is a different beast and the setting itself everything that isn't the prime material plane.

I'm also talking AD&D. 1e-5e, and yes, I include 3e-5e in AD&D, since they are progressions from 1e and 2e, so are part of that line and not the BECMI line. I consider BECMI and AD&D to be two different versions of D&D, so what happens in BECMI doesn't necessarily mean that it is also present in AD&D.

 

[Maxperson]

What do you mean by 'created to be'? If we look back at the 1st edition, plane shift was a 5th level spell, Amulet of the Planes was a regular magic item, and the DMG talks rather casually about using those to travel to other planes, and even the PHB has rules . I think it's a little silly to say that players weren't intended to ever get to other planes when the rules include a variety of ways to get there, specific mention of what items don't work and don't work, and special rules of combat for other planes. I think if the base game includes rules for doing stuff, especially in the player-only book, it's silly to say that players in the game were never intended to do that stuff.

I mean created in the fiction. Not created in the game. In the fiction the inner planes are the building blocks of the prime, where the settings(outside of planescape) are, and the outer planes are the afterlife where you go after you die, not before.

Things like the Plane Shift spell and Amulet of the Planes are created as special exceptions to that general in fiction rule to allow the players to have fun tromping around the planes.

 

[SkidAce]

I mean created in the fiction. Not created in the game. In the fiction the inner planes are the building blocks of the prime, where the settings(outside of planescape) are, and the outer planes are the afterlife where you go after you die, not before.

Things like the Plane Shift spell and Amulet of the Planes are created as special exceptions to that general in fiction rule to allow the players to have fun tromping around the planes.

I'm not sure the "settings" (if you mean FR, Athas, Grayhawk, etc) are in the Inner Planes.

They seem to be part of the cosmos between the outer planes and the inner. (using old edition guidance)

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not sure the "settings" (if you mean FR, Athas, Grayhawk, etc) are in the Inner Planes.

They seem to be part of the cosmos between the outer planes and the inner. (using old edition guidance)

I'm not saying that they are in the inner planes. The inner planes are the building blocks for the prime. The prime consists of earth, fire, water, air, ash, smoke, etc. and those get their origins from the inner planes.

 

[SkidAce]

I'm not saying that they are in the inner planes. The inner planes are the building blocks for the prime. The prime consists of earth, fire, water, air, ash, smoke, etc. and those get their origins from the inner planes.

Sorry, guess the phrasing threw me off.

 

[Maxperson]

Sorry, guess the phrasing threw me off.

On re-read after your post, I can see how you read it that way.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm not sure the "settings" (if you mean FR, Athas, Grayhawk, etc) are in the Inner Planes.

They seem to be part of the cosmos between the outer planes and the inner. (using old edition guidance)

1st edition DMG talked about parallel prime material planes.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

One of the worst imbalanced between them is that plane shift is generally a better spell for traveling to a location on your own plane than teleport is. Hear me out.

First of all, I'm taking about travel, not combat utility. Either one let you you escape a situation, which, lacking shenanigans, is the only combat utility. So they are equal there.

Teleport can, if you know the target location well enough and roll well, provide perfect accuracy. But there is also a chance of uncapped damage on a mishap. PCs are unlikely to die from it, (unless they were already hurt and using it to escape ...) but forget about bringing along a typical NPC commoner or noble or guard. Unless you are very familiar (so you are on target 75% of the time) there is large chance you will be taking a mishap and probably not ending up where you wanted to go. At least 5.5 makes the "off-target" result a simple 2d12 miles, rather than a giant circle of uncapped size based on how far you intended to teleport--which was an absurd oversight in 5.0. It's a downright dangerous and unreliable spell, with the only upside being that the table provides a chance of going exactly where you intended, and that you may make it on the first casting.

Plane shift, on the other hand lacks that nasty table of errors. You simply appear at or near your destination. It's left to DM discretion exactly what that means, but I doubt most DMs are going to make "or near" more than 2d12 miles. There is no risk at all of ending up somewhere else entirely or having any sort of damage or mishap. The only real downside to plane shift is that you have to cast the spell twice (once to go to another plane--I imagine an overnight stay at a nice inn in Bytopia would be pleasant--and again to return to your starting plans at your desired destination), which might mean waiting until tomorrow to arrive at your destination. But there's also a good chance you'll have to cast teleport more than once if you aren't really high on the familiarity table, so I'm not sure how much that one counts. There is also the issue of getting the material components, but that's probably not a huge issue at that level, especially if you are only using it to get to destinations on the Material Plane. You'd only need the component for the Material and your overnight stay plane.

I couldn't not see this issue the very first time I read the PHB in 2014. I house ruled plane shift to have a good chance of dropping you off at a random destination on the plane rather than "at or near your destination", and I believe I capped the mishap damage of teleport to only happen once.

Some interesting thoughts, I think.

Personally, I am very much against any teleport being vastly "off-target", even though it sounds like a cool story, it is either going to get glossed over as the players cast it a second time, hoping for a better result, or puts the GM into the need to come up for adventures (or at least any level of details) at the off-target location. "Off-Target" should maybe be an option the GM can invoke if he has something planned, but there should be an alternate resolution that doesn't require prep.

In turn, I'd rather do stuff like have the teleportation take some time - simply spending a few minutes or hours in transit is a drawback that can be felt, without needing a lot of improvision or hand-waving because the GM already has to consider travel time and rest for his campaign anyway (and also the player can account for it.)
I also wouldn't mind if there were some warning signs that a teleport is about to arrive, so (long range) teleport assassinations aren't really that viable.