D&D General [5E/5.5E] Why are Teleport and Plane Shift the Same Spell Level?

[Marc17]

For the incense, yes. For one of those tuning forks? No. That tuning fork is more like trying to find a Rembrandt for sale. There are a few, all of which are owned or lost. Now can you find someone who is willing to part with one? It would be tough.

They can't make one themselves, so yes it can be that much harder. Those capable of making one are virtually non-existent, since there aren't rules for spellcasters to make them like there are with magic items. So you either have to track down one of those very rare, very high level people capable of making such an item, or you need to get a high level spellcaster to part with their own tuning fork, which would be extraordinarily expensive, and that's if you can even find a spellcaster with the one you want who is willing to part with it at all. The materials value of 250+gp isn't going to be anywhere near what the rarity/use value is to such a caster.

Well, that's between you and your players. If you want to pull that sort of stuff while DM, it's up to you. I really think you're making "must be attuned to a plane of existence" do some heavy lifting. My reading of the 5.24 E spell description is that the the value is as stated in the Components section. Details of what would be needed to make them comes with the spell, either as arcane knowledge learned when gaining the spell or given to the cleric from their deity. I'm just reading it as saying you need a full set already built if you want to go places spontaneously.*

*ETA: Then again. Attune has specific meaning in 5E. It might mean you just need a forked rod and then spend a short rest to make it ready for whatever plane you are going to.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, that's between you and your players. If you want to pull that sort of stuff while DM, it's up to you. I really think you're making "must be attuned to a plane of existence" do some heavy lifting. My reading of the 5.24 E spell description is that the the value is as stated in the Components section. Details of what would be needed to make them comes with the spell, either as arcane knowledge learned when gaining the spell or given to the cleric from their deity. I'm just reading it as saying you need a full set already built if you want to go places spontaneously.*

*ETA: Then again. Attune has specific meaning in 5E. It might mean you just need a forked rod and then spend a short rest to make it ready for whatever plane you are going to.

No other spell teaches you how to make the components. Why would Plane Shift be the exception without language stating it's an exception? The spell neither teaches you how to make the tuning forks, nor provides them to you. You have to find them somehow like you do with every other component that has a gold piece value.

 

[Maxperson]

Players don't need to make it themselves & the post you quoted suggests them doing nothing of the sort.

Rembrandt died in 1606. Why would finding a tuning fork tuned to a particular plane be like trying to find a specific artist's 400something year old painting as opposed to a custom furniture build custom bit of jewelry or a custom handmade violin?

Because you have to paint the tuning forks! Or more seriously, it's an analogy on rarity, not art or death of someone. There are 300 Rembrandts floating around. There probably aren't that many planar tuning forks in a typical setting. High level NPC spellcasters are relatively rare. Of those, most probably don't have Plane Shift.

As to why it's not like custom jewelry or a handmade violin? Well, because those fellas ain't spellcasters high enough to cast Plane Shift AND learn how to actually make the tuning forks. That's like asking to have Joe the local normal human librarian write you up a spellbook.

A high tier2 tier3+ PC should have no trouble "tracking down" someone with an obscure but relatively standard service to offer

Why? Why would people just be sitting around ready to sell their only tuning forks to PCs just because the PC gained some levels and wants Plane Shift?

 

[tetrasodium]

No other spell teaches you how to make the components. Why would Plane Shift be the exception without language stating it's an exception? The spell neither teaches you how to make the tuning forks, nor provides them to you. You have to find them somehow like you do with every other component that has a gold piece value.

Because you have to paint the tuning forks! Or more seriously, it's an analogy on rarity, not art or death of someone. There are 300 Rembrandts floating around. There probably aren't that many planar tuning forks in a typical setting. High level NPC spellcasters are relatively rare. Of those, most probably don't have Plane Shift.

As to why it's not like custom jewelry or a handmade violin? Well, because those fellas ain't spellcasters high enough to cast Plane Shift AND learn how to actually make the tuning forks. That's like asking to have Joe the local normal human librarian write you up a spellbook.

Why? Why would people just be sitting around ready to sell their only tuning forks to PCs just because the PC gained some levels and wants Plane Shift?

I feel like there's an important question that nobody has asked you.

Spoiler: do you know what a tuning fork is?

Why Do Doctors Even Use Tuning Forks?

Why Do Doctors Even Use Tuning Forks?

www.youtube.com

Have you ever held one while it's going?

You seem to be treating them as some kind of macguffin class object that d&d made up rather than a standardized tool crafted by a crafter of some sort. a craftsman who sells tuning forks to musicians opera singers orchestras & so on tuned for musical notes A through G would also sell them to spellcasters just as you & I can buy this set of thirteen for

Spoiler: I invoke google-fu

These sets are commonly utilized in the following applications:Sound Wave Physics: Used in ⁠Carolina Biological Supply physics labs to demonstrate how pitch (frequency) relates to wavelength.Resonance & Constructive Interference: When two tuning forks with slightly different frequencies are struck together, they create a phenomenon called "beats".Harmonic Ratios: Students can strike combinations to hear exact mathematical ratios between notes, connecting music to the physical properties of sound.Medical Diagnostics: While standard medical exams usually rely on just 128 Hz (for neuropathy) or 512 Hz (for audiology), comprehensive ⁠United Scientific Supplies kits allow students to compare clinical frequencies

and use them in science classes or whatever despite maybe not knowing anything about making music.

I've never once heard someone suggest that a bard must be capable of crafting their focus item lute flute krooth or Didgeridoo let alone strings reeds & so on for them. A spellcaster would buy a tuning fork from the same specialty merchants who sell those things to musicians bards & so on.

Even if the spellcaster needs to visit an upscale merchant in the inner city/noble's quarter of a more developed city who stocks 250gp products & special order it so the merchant can order it from his tuning fork supplier, that shouldn't be a significant hurdle for a spellcaster capable of casting planeshift anywhere but darksun. The trouble a PC has placing such an order on athas is more likely to be the lack of divine spellcasters the lack of planes to visit the general illegality of magic & possibly the post apocalyptic societal collapse.

 

[Maxperson]

I feel like there's an important question that nobody has asked you.

Spoiler: do you know what a tuning fork is?

Why Do Doctors Even Use Tuning Forks?

Why Do Doctors Even Use Tuning Forks?

www.youtube.com

Have you ever held one while it's going?

You seem to be treating them as some kind of macguffin class object that d&d made up rather than a standardized tool crafted by a crafter of some sort. a craftsman who sells tuning forks to musicians opera singers orchestras & so on tuned for musical notes A through G would also sell them to spellcasters just as you & I can buy this set of thirteen for

Spoiler: I invoke google-fu

Okay. Since you're bringing up doctor's tuning forks, show me which ones are attuned to say the Abyss or the 9 Hells. This is apples and oranges. No, not even apples and oranges, because at least those are both fruit. This is apples and drill bits.

And no, they are not some standardized tool in the vast majority of D&D campaigns, because the vast majority of D&D campaigns doesn't have enough spellcasters of that level to make something like that anything resembling standard.

You accuse me of treating the tuning forks as some sort of macguffin, then turn around and treat them like some off the shelf item you would pick up at Walmart.

These sets are commonly utilized in the following applications:Sound Wave Physics: Used in ⁠Carolina Biological Supply physics labs to demonstrate how pitch (frequency) relates to wavelength.Resonance & Constructive Interference: When two tuning forks with slightly different frequencies are struck together, they create a phenomenon called "beats".Harmonic Ratios: Students can strike combinations to hear exact mathematical ratios between notes, connecting music to the physical properties of sound.Medical Diagnostics: While standard medical exams usually rely on just 128 Hz (for neuropathy) or 512 Hz (for audiology), comprehensive ⁠United Scientific Supplies kits allow students to compare clinical frequencies

and use them in science classes or whatever despite maybe not knowing anything about making music.

Again, apples and drill bits. This is not an example of magically tuning a fork to a completely different plane of existence. This is not a musical note.

I've never once heard someone suggest that a bard must be capable of crafting their focus item lute flute krooth or Didgeridoo let alone strings reeds & so on for them. A spellcaster would buy a tuning fork from the same specialty merchants who sell those things to musicians bards & so on.

Because Tom, Dick and Harry commoner can make instruments. They cannot make tuning forks that are attuned to Carceri for 13th+ level spellcasters that are rare to find.

Even if the spellcaster needs to visit an upscale merchant in the inner city/noble's quarter of a more developed city who stocks 250gp products & special order it so the merchant can order it from his tuning fork supplier, that shouldn't be a significant hurdle for a spellcaster capable of casting planeshift anywhere but darksun. The trouble a PC has placing such an order on athas is more likely to be the lack of divine spellcasters the lack of planes to visit the general illegality of magic & possibly the post apocalyptic societal collapse.

Again, 250gp in material value =/= 250gp for sale. Rarity matters. And even a specialized merchant wouldn't have enough customers to make it worthwhile, even if he could make them, which he can't. Spellcasters are rare. High level ones are very much rarer. At least in most settings. If you're playing in Glantri or old Netheril, things like this change.

 

[Lanefan]

I have never done so, because I refuse to waste months to years of my life doing something I neither enjoy nor get enrichment from.

Really? You've never had a character that, once put in play, failed for whatever [mechanical, personality, story, etc.] reason to live up to the idea or concept you had for it going in?

That makes you either insanely lucky or - more likely - way more willing than you give yourself credit for to adapt when things don't work out in order to make them work.

Me, I'm not that stubborn - if a character's not working out for some reason, I'll gladly let it go and try another. I just don't take it that seriously.

The hyper materialist, hyper selfish murderhobos you defend are a valid way to play, though they are also a very acquired taste and most people aren't interested. You have no right to tell anyone else what D&D is allowed to be, and you sure as hell don't get to tell me that I'm having badwrongfun because I want both group story AND individual story to matter.

If you're playing solo with a DM then sure, go nuts on the individual-character story arcs. But - as I keep being told - when there's multiple players D&D is a group game, therefore doesn't it just make sense that the story of the group/party as a whole should take priority over, or even shunt aside, that of any one individual character?

 

[Lanefan]

Plane Shift, you are entierly dependant on the DM being in a good mood to not land in a different mess.



Didn't someone say the 5.5 rules don't give DMs the power to mess with players?

If you need somewhere safe to Plane Shift to, why not just go to your own deity's home plane? One would think you'd be welcome there, along with your companions if you're willing to vouch for them.

 

[Maxperson]

If you're playing solo with a DM then sure, go nuts on the individual-character story arcs. But - as I keep being told - when there's multiple players D&D is a group game, therefore doesn't it just make sense that the story of the group/party as a whole should take priority over, or even shunt aside, that of any one individual character?

This completely depends on the group. I've known groups who want to explore individual stories, partially solo, partially with the group exploring something of that PC X's background, or whatever. Group quests happen, but those are secondary to the focus on individual characters.

Personally, I like some individual PC story elements making it into play, but for most of play to be about the group. That's a personal preference, though, not how games can or should be played.

As long as everyone at the table is having fun, there's no badwrongfun way to play.

 

[Maxperson]

If you need somewhere safe to Plane Shift to, why not just go to your own deity's home plane? One would think you'd be welcome there, along with your companions if you're willing to vouch for them.

Planes are infinite, but deity domains are not. Just because you'd be welcome in your god's domain, doesn't mean that the rest of the plane would be welcoming or give a flying fig about who you worship. Heck, they may not have even heard of your god if your god dwells an 87,000 year walk from where you end up appearing.

 

[Lanefan]

If something isn't on the standard equipment list, then it's intended to be hard to acquire.

Or, as I've found many times, the non-inclusion is due to an oversight.

I'm not at all a fan of having to have a different tuning fork for each plane. One reusable tuning fork should do for them all IMO, and such should be fairly easily acquired or commissioned in any half-decent size town or city...or any Bardic college.