5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

Cleon

Adventurer
Hmm. Had assumed they were demons from the name and alignment. However not really clarified elsewhere...I suppose it begs the question...what would be the difference if it was just a chaotic evil fiend vs a demon (narrowly-defined)?

Not much. Apart from the "political element" that Devil and Demons hate each other but sometimes work with other fiends, there might be spells or other magics that have specific effects on creatures with the (demon) subtype which wouldn't affect a Gurgotch if it isn't an actual Demon.
 

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Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Further on that, the WD14 description says they are "another of the infernal forces once conjured forth to do war against the forces of Good" who know wander "seeking the depths from which they originated."

Now "infernal forces" could mean they were conjured with a bunch of devils as easily as demons. Devils won't work with Demons in D&D, but will hire other kinds of fiends as mercenaries such as Yugoloths, some of which can be CE.

Still, they could just as well have the demon subtype. Any preferences?



I'm thinking the Constitution shouldn't be higher than a Mammoth's CON 21.

If we're aiming for Challenge 7 and assuming we're lowering the AC to 15 to match a Vrock the the HP should be slightly better than a Vrock, so maybe Hit Points 115 (10d12 + 50) or 126 (11d12 + 55)?

Alternatively, we could give it CON 19 so the Con bonus is +4 like a Vrock and slap on more HD for, say, Hit Points 126 (12d12 + 48).

Hmm, I think I like the second option: HD 12, CON 19. That's still a lot tougher than a 5E Elephant.
ok - gone with 12HD and 19 CON

I suppose if not a demon, does broaden scope in that other entities from Pandemonium to Acheron may own or use them. Yeah I prefer that as I think that gives them more flexibility for use
 



Casimir Liber

Adventurer
As a 2-for-1 offer..let me throw in this pint-sized kaiju gurgotch....am not sure about damage or STR with this one....
 

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Cleon

Adventurer
Gurgotchemoth
Gargantuan fiend, chaotic evil
Armor Class 20 (natural armor)
Hit Points 525 (30d20 + 240)
Speed 40 ft.

STR​
DEX​
CON​
INT​
WIS​
CHA​
29 (+9)​
10 (+0)​
27 (+6)​
10 (+0)​
12 (+1)​
12 (+1)​

Saving Throws CON +12, INT +6, WIS +7, CHA+7
Damage Resistances fire, lightning; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical damage by creatures of size Large or smaller
Damage Immunities poison; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from magical damage by creatures of size Large or smaller as well as nonmagical damage not caused by siege engines or creatures of size Huge or larger
Condition Immunities paralyzed, poisoned
Senses truesight 120 ft., passive Perception 11
Languages Understands Abyssal but cannot speak, telepathy with creatures touched by its trunk (reach ## ft.)
Challenge 18 (20,000 XP) Proficiency Bonus +6

Special Trait. ???.

Special Trait. ???.

Actions

Multiattack. The ??? makes ??? attacks: ??? with its ??? and ??? with its ???.

Attack. Melee Weapon Attack: +# to hit, reach # ft., one target. Hit: # (#d# + #) ??? damage.

Attack. Ranged Weapon Attack: +# to hit, range ##/## ft., one target. Hit: # (#d# + #) ??? damage.

Action (#/day). ???.
 ???.

Action (Recharge 5-6). ???.
 ???.

Description
???.
 ???.
Subsection. ???.
 ???.
Subsection. ???.
 ???.

(Inspired by the Gurgotch created by Roger Musson; appeared in White Dwarf Magazine #14 (Aug/Sept 1979) as part of "The Fiend Factory", edited by Don Turnbull.)
 
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Cleon

Adventurer
Okay, let's continue!

STR​
DEX​
CON​
INT​
WIS​
CHA​
## (+–#)​
## (+–#)​
19 (+4)​
## (+–#)​
## (+–#)​
## (+–#)​

Okay, let's consider the ability scores.

Strength
Elephants are STR 22 and Mammoths are STR 24, while Vrock are STR 17.

The Fiend Factory Gurgotch only does 1d10 damage with a tusk, while a 1E/2E Elephant does 2d8 (!) and a Mammoth does 3d6 (!!) which argues that that they're either weaker or their tusks are less effective weapons.

That doesn't seem right for a Demon Elephant the same size as an actual large elephant, so I'd lean towards giving it the same Strength as an Elephant/Mammoth or averaging the two to STR 23.

Dexterity
Hmm, it's got a lot higher Armour Class than an elephant, so maybe some of that is because its way more agile than a non-demonic Pachyderm? If it had a +2 Dex bonus like a 5E Vrock instead of –1 like an Elephant, that'd account for its AC being three points higher (15 rather than 12).

So maybe DEX 14? Or DEX 12 or 13 plus skin that's a bit thicker or tougher than an Elephant? That'd be a pleasant surprise for adventurers fighting it!

Constitution
We've decided on CON 19 already.

Intelligence
The current INT 10 is fine by me.

Wisdom
The current WIS 12 is fine by me.

Charisma
Giving it CHA 12 feels a tad high. An ordinary Elephant has CHA 6 and a Vrock has CHA 8. Somewhere from 7 to 9 would suit me better.
 




Cleon

Adventurer
O-kay....so....umm...what next :)

Well we're going through the stats in order, so it's Saving Throws followed by Resistance/Immunities.

Not sure it needs proficiency in STR and CON saves as it's already got plenty high stats in those areas. It would benefit more from proficiency in WIS and CHA to compensate for the weak ability scores. Note that Vrocks are proficient in those saves.

Vrocks are proficient in three Saves as they also have DEX. I'd be game to add a third proficiency, but maybe a different stat such as INT.

As for the Resistance/Immunities, the original White Dwarf #14 article doesn't mention it having any, apart from the 50% Magic Resistance, but I have no strong objection to giving it some or all the resistances and immunities in your current Rough Draft as they're pretty standard for a Demon of that CR.

Maybe switch them up a bit to make it slightly less conventional? Perhaps change the lightning resistance to acid or something?
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Sounds reasonable to switch to WIS and CHA. Will ditch the STR one but leave the CON one to help it resisting things (though is immune to poison anyway).

Were you still thinking of (maybe) a mini lightning attack with its tail? If so, I'd leave lightning resistance and maybe drop cold resistance and add acid resistance
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Sounds reasonable to switch to WIS and CHA. Will ditch the STR one but leave the CON one to help it resisting things (though is immune to poison anyway).

So that'd be CON +7, WIS +4, CHA +2? Works for me.

Were you still thinking of (maybe) a mini lightning attack with its tail? If so, I'd leave lightning resistance and maybe drop cold resistance and add acid resistance

It was you who proposed the lightning attack not me.

I was just thinking it'd use it like a pitchfork to stab or toss opponents:

I keep on wanting to do something with that pitchfork tail. What's the point of a tail like a trident if you can't stab things with it!
OKay - have nerfed it to something abut the same size as the elephant in 5e. Nerfed the damage and it gives us a critter of CR 7. Agree about the tail. Maybe zap of electricity? Gives it a electric bolt attack (recharge on 5-6)?

The original monster could make three Multiattacks per round: two piercing attacks with its tusks and one toss attack with its tail.

So I'm thinking if its Multiattack could choose any three attacks from a piercing Tail Trident, piercing Gore, "

I'd be fine giving the Juggernaut version a tail zap attack and maybe a cone of acid from its trunk, but that'd feel like it strays too far from the original monster.

Still, lightning resistance or immunity is a common feature of 5E demons so I guess we'd better keep it.

Plus they get cold & fire as standard.

Hmm, how about we give them resistance to acid, cold, fire, lightning? There are demons around that CR have special defenses against 4 energy types, like the CR 6 Babau.

The Damage Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks feels more of a stretch to me.

The original monster didn't have any weapon immunities. Demons are traditionally tough against fire and the like in D&D but a fair few of the weakest or "part demon" creatures are subject to normal weapons.
 



Casimir Liber

Adventurer
So that'd be CON +7, WIS +4, CHA +2? Works for me.



It was you who proposed the lightning attack not me.

I was just thinking it'd use it like a pitchfork to stab or toss opponents:



The original monster could make three Multiattacks per round: two piercing attacks with its tusks and one toss attack with its tail.

So I'm thinking if its Multiattack could choose any three attacks from a piercing Tail Trident, piercing Gore, "

I'd be fine giving the Juggernaut version a tail zap attack and maybe a cone of acid from its trunk, but that'd feel like it strays too far from the original monster.

Still, lightning resistance or immunity is a common feature of 5E demons so I guess we'd better keep it.

Plus they get cold & fire as standard.

Hmm, how about we give them resistance to acid, cold, fire, lightning? There are demons around that CR have special defenses against 4 energy types, like the CR 6 Babau.

The Damage Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks feels more of a stretch to me.

The original monster didn't have any weapon immunities. Demons are traditionally tough against fire and the like in D&D but a fair few of the weakest or "part demon" creatures are subject to normal weapons.
Okay went with acid..

So with multiattack - any 3 of tail/gore/gore/stomp?
 

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