A Completely Unbiased XP System

[overgeeked]

Bingo XP
In my experience, people either LOVE it or HATE it. Hope it is useful.
Art by Feral Indie Studios.
View attachment 448141

I love that.

 

[Gradine]

Agreed, this is such a fun and interesting concept; like this feels like it would work so great for a PbtA hack, particularly one where the "bingo" somehow fits thematically

 

[Lanefan]

Sure, but you could say the same of only rewarding XP for the behaviors you want to see. Killed the baron instead of negotiating? The baron wasn't a combat threat, no XP; Negotiated with the baron instead of killing him? The baron lied and the problem is unresolved, no XP. The DM needs to be careful with their authority either way.

Agreed, and the path to a less biased (but still not unbiased) system is to broaden the parameters a bit such that "overcoming challenges" is a prime xp driver. That way, as long as the Baron is a challenge, no matter how you overcome the challenge he presents you get xp for doing so. Pleasant side effect here is this paradigm can and does include non-combat challenges.

My main concern is that only those characters who actively share the risk (whatever it may consist of) in overcoming a challenge get xp for that challenge. Thus for your Baron example, if only three characters out of five go talk to him while the other two round up supplies in town, only the three who did the talking (and thus risked the Baron's ire had things gone adrift) get the xp.

 

[bsss]

Agreed, and the path to a less biased (but still not unbiased) system is to broaden the parameters a bit such that "overcoming challenges" is a prime xp driver. That way, as long as the Baron is a challenge, no matter how you overcome the challenge he presents you get xp for doing so. Pleasant side effect here is this paradigm can and does include non-combat challenges.

Completely agreed here. I think broad objectives are best and offer ton of space for branching paths to solutions.

My main concern is that only those characters who actively share the risk (whatever it may consist of) in overcoming a challenge get xp for that challenge. Thus for your Baron example, if only three characters out of five go talk to him while the other two round up supplies in town, only the three who did the talking (and thus risked the Baron's ire had things gone adrift) get the xp.

I see the potential concern, but it's not a concern for me, I guess. I recently ran my space game where two of the party were staking out the situation with the information broker in his casino/syndicate front, while the third lined up a job to outfit the ship with new parts, pretty similar to your hypothetical. They all advanced the story, so they all got XP.

 

[Lanefan]

I see the potential concern, but it's not a concern for me, I guess. I recently ran my space game where two of the party were staking out the situation with the information broker in his casino/syndicate front, while the third lined up a job to outfit the ship with new parts, pretty similar to your hypothetical. They all advanced the story, so they all got XP.

"Advancing the story" isn't a parameter I really care about, in that it assumes there's a story in place waiting to be advanced.

This also, and immediately, introduces a risk of severe bias if the GM has specific ideas on how-where-which way the story is intended to go and then only gives xp for moving the story in that direction.

And if there isn't a pre-set story then no matter what they do they'll get xp, because no matter what they do they're advancing the emergent story; which brings us right back to the issue of their potentially getting xp for doing nothing.

 

[bsss]

"Advancing the story" isn't a parameter I really care about, in that it assumes there's a story in place waiting to be advanced.

This also, and immediately, introduces a risk of severe bias if the GM has specific ideas on how-where-which way the story is intended to go and then only gives xp for moving the story in that direction.

And if there isn't a pre-set story then no matter what they do they'll get xp, because no matter what they do they're advancing the emergent story; which brings us right back to the issue of their potentially getting xp for doing nothing.

There is no preset story, they are building the story via their actions. So they get XP. If their story is to do nothing, that's a very boring story and I'm not sure why we're sitting at the table staring at each other, dice in our hands, doing nothing. Beyond doing something, I have no expectations of what it is we do, other than that we enjoy it. So, I disagree with your categorization here, but I think you were thrown off by what I consider a TTRPG game's story (it's everything).

 

[aramis erak]

I think milestones are fine if they are defined and known by players ahead of time so they become something to strive for. Not fine if it's mostly the GM providing rewards posthoc.

Marvel Heroic milestones are great. The way most D&D adventures do it is not great.

Marvel Heroic uses the term entirely differently, more akin to Keys from Lady Blackbird. And whatever LB borred them from.

At the end of the day, Marvel Heroic's "Milestones" are just a strongly biased XP earning system, not a "level up when the story hits a specific point" of D&D "milestone leveling"...

 

[Nytmare]

I haven't read through all 13 pages yet, but has anyone pointed out the Torchbearer (and by extension Burning Wheel) XP system?

For the most part, players set their character's own XP triggers, and get singular experience points per session for each one of those triggers that get...triggered.

Each character has what are referred to as their BIGs, and characters need to gain (and exchange) two different kinds of experience point to level up.

A character's BIGs are their Belief, Instinct, and Goal. A Belief is an (often incorrect) 100% absolute statement of fact that the character believes. Something like "Might makes right" or "Save your own neck first, let other people worry about themselves." If over the course of a session they can point to a specific time where their Belief being triggered they get one kind of XP. If instead, they're able to point to a specific time where they acted out AGAINST that Belief, they get the other kind of XP.

An Instinct is a mechanic that allows a character to get a "free" attempt at a roll. Normally in Torchbearer every action that the players take ticks down a clock called The Grind that basically beats them up and makes them miserable. An Instinct triggering operates outside that turn structure and doesn't tick the clock down. Instincts basically work like macros and are worded like an IF / THEN statement. "If we find a door, I always check it for traps" "If danger appears, I make sure that the princess is safe." If a character's Instinct is triggered to the benefit of the party the player gets an XP.

Goals are short term things the player is hoping to accomplish during a session. It basically lays out the groundwork for the GM as to how they should pace out the night's adventure. If a player achieves their Goal themselves, they get one kind of XP. If instead they only work towards it, or watched from the sidelines as someone else achieved it, they get the other kind of XP.

Beyond that, there are a handful of other standard XP rewards that are voted on and doled out by the players, but I find those first three to be elegant and to capture more of what I always wished other games XP (and alignment!) systems were.

 

[Nytmare]

I haven't read through all 13 pages yet, but has anyone pointed out the Torchbearer (and by extension Burning Wheel) XP system?

For the most part, players set their character's own XP triggers, and get singular experience points per session for each one of those triggers that get...triggered.

Each character has what are referred to as their BIGs, and characters need to gain (and exchange) two different kinds of experience point to level up.

A character's BIGs are their Belief, Instinct, and Goal. A Belief is an (often incorrect) 100% absolute statement of fact that the character believes. Something like "Might makes right" or "Save your own neck first, let other people worry about themselves." If over the course of a session they can point to a specific time where their Belief being triggered they get one kind of XP. If instead, they're able to point to a specific time where they acted out AGAINST that Belief, they get the other kind of XP.

An Instinct is a mechanic that allows a character to get a "free" attempt at a roll. Normally in Torchbearer every action that the players take ticks down a clock called The Grind that basically beats them up and makes them miserable. An Instinct triggering operates outside that turn structure and doesn't tick the clock down. Instincts basically work like macros and are worded like an IF / THEN statement. "If we find a door, I always check it for traps" "If danger appears, I make sure that the princess is safe." If a character's Instinct is triggered to the benefit of the party the player gets an XP.

Goals are short term things the player is hoping to accomplish during a session. It basically lays out the groundwork for the GM as to how they should pace out the night's adventure. If a player achieves their Goal themselves, they get one kind of XP. If instead they only work towards it, or watched from the sidelines as someone else achieved it, they get the other kind of XP.

Beyond that, there are a handful of other standard XP rewards that are voted on and doled out by the players, but I find those first three to be elegant and to capture more of what I always wished other games XP (and alignment!) systems were.

Also, in amidst all of that, the game has a skill progression system where you keep track of when you use skills, and they automatically level up when you've tried to use them and succeeded on a number of rolls equal to it's current rank, and FAILED a number of rolls equal to it's rank-1.

 

[GMMichael]

I haven't read through all 13 pages yet, but has anyone pointed out the Torchbearer (and by extension Burning Wheel) XP system?

For the most part, players set their character's own XP triggers, and get singular experience points per session for each one of those triggers that get...triggered.

Each character has what are referred to as their BIGs, and characters need to gain (and exchange) two different kinds of experience point to level up.

A character's BIGs are their Belief, Instinct, and Goal. A Belief is an (often incorrect) 100% absolute statement of fact that the character believes. Something like "Might makes right" or "Save your own neck first, let other people worry about themselves." If over the course of a session they can point to a specific time where their Belief being triggered they get one kind of XP. If instead, they're able to point to a specific time where they acted out AGAINST that Belief, they get the other kind of XP.

An Instinct is a mechanic that allows a character to get a "free" attempt at a roll. Normally in Torchbearer every action that the players take ticks down a clock called The Grind that basically beats them up and makes them miserable. An Instinct triggering operates outside that turn structure and doesn't tick the clock down. Instincts basically work like macros and are worded like an IF / THEN statement. "If we find a door, I always check it for traps" "If danger appears, I make sure that the princess is safe." If a character's Instinct is triggered to the benefit of the party the player gets an XP.

Goals are short term things the player is hoping to accomplish during a session. It basically lays out the groundwork for the GM as to how they should pace out the night's adventure. If a player achieves their Goal themselves, they get one kind of XP. If instead they only work towards it, or watched from the sidelines as someone else achieved it, they get the other kind of XP.

Beyond that, there are a handful of other standard XP rewards that are voted on and doled out by the players, but I find those first three to be elegant and to capture more of what I always wished other games XP (and alignment!) systems were.

That system feels very holistic, but is nowhere near unbiased.