A Completely Unbiased XP System

Many complain that 3e's system is all about combat...but it doesn't actually need to be all about combat.

It's actually about encounters. If you pass an encounter or not. An encounter does not have to be killing something. In fact, even if you have combat, if you overcome the encounter you don't even need to actually kill the monster to overcome the opponent.

Encounters can be anything...if you really think about it. A skill based encounter is the most common after the combat encounter and skills can be anything from diplomacy to disabling a device.

I'd say, make broad encounters that deal with all sorts of different things. Perhaps they need to fish for their encounter. Perhaps they need to clean the bar room. Whatever you can think of. Put an XP value on it and keep on going.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

For what it's worth, I'm zeroing in on some criteria for XP awards. This is the general idea: each challenge is worth XP. No challenge, no XP. Each award is multiplied by its expected appropriate level, and quest-critical criteria are worth twice the non-critical criteria.

Befriend NPC
Defeat NPC
Collect treasure
Discover secret
Quest-specific other

They're intentionally vague - they need to apply to a lot of different quests. As in, an NPC isn't necessarily a "monster,"* defeating doesn't have to mean killing, treasure is about anything of value (intentionally placed as a reward for PCs), a secret could be door/information/etc. The quest-specific other is basically things you need to complete the quest, as long as they're discrete and challenging.

So I probably added your idea or ignored it (sorry). Are some character archetypes left out of this scheme? What did I miss?

* Insert D&D 5/6e definitions crack here.
Your list looks like a great start for where you want to go. What's key is rewarding the players for doing what is expected of the characters: are they adventurers who take on dangerous missions most people would never think of doing? Then reward them for every achievement related to taking on dangerous missions. The Rules Cyclopedia lays it out plainly:
  1. By Roleplaying Well
  2. By Achieving Party Goals
  3. By Defeating Monsters and Opponents
  4. By Acquiring Treasure
  5. By Performing Exceptional Actions
The RC also provides detailed explanations of the above, to include X.P. calculation for threats, how often X.P. should be awarded, who should get the X.P. awards, et al. It's a very structured sub-system that leaves no doubt to how gaining experience works.

I'd suggest your X.P. system do the same: it needs to be specific and consistent in appearance and application to avoid player frustration. IME many players enjoy knowing when their PCs level-up and what their PCs get when they advance. It's a huge aspect of D&D/PF for some players who will "plot out" their PCs' advancement, picking what skill ranks, feats and spells their PCs take well before they even reach the future levels. I've found this "PC Building" methodology to even exist in some D&D campaigns that used Milestone Leveling. The expectation of who the player wants their PC to become can be a fun aspect of the overall ttrpg experience (for some).

good-luck-three-finger-salute.gif
 

There's a huge issue with your premise... you're asking for "a completely unbiased xp system" - by its very nature, an XP system will be biased towards "actions which result in earning XP" and against "all other actions." Even if we take as an extremely simple measure the traditional three pillars of D&D (combat, social interaction, exploration), there's no system that works well for all of them.

  • Old-school D&D with its 1 XP per 1 GP model is biased toward "treasure collection" (stealing treasure/fooling guardians is basically as good as killing them) - there are no direct rewards for combat, social interaction, nor exploration per se.
  • Third edition introduced the XP-versus-CR system, which is biased towards "overcoming obstacles" and in theory could do a better job but with weak social interaction and exploration CR rules, tended to be biased heavily in favor of combat.
  • Fifth edition suffers from many of the same issues as third.

As mentioned early in the thread, the Palladium XP system does actually do a pretty good job of coming up with what I would consider close to an unbiased system (as it still has subjectivity on the part of the GM but tries to explicitly reward as many actions as possible).

For Class and Level, I find the Palladium list surprisingly good:

It is, however, full of subjective elements. What constitutes a minor/major/great menace is in fact supposed to be relative. I've used it in Palladium Fantasy and Robotech in the past.
25 Performing a skill (successful or not)
25 Clever, but futile idea.
100 Clever, useful idea or action.
100 Quick thinking idea or action.
200 A critical plan or action that saves the character's life and/or a few comrades.
400-1000 Critical plan or action that saves the entire group or many people.
100-300 Endangering the character's own life to help others.
500-700 Self-sacrifice (or potential self-sacrifice) in a life and death situation (like leaping in front of a fireball meant for someone else to save that person, even Though he/she is likely to die, or offering his/her own life to save the group or another)
50-100 Avoiding unnecessary violence.
100-200 Deductive reasoning and/or insight.
50 Good judgment.
50 Playing in character bonus.
50-100 Daring or heroic (whether clever or not).
25-50 Killing or subduing a minor menace.
75- 100 Killing or subduing a major menace.
150-300 Killing or subduing a great menace.

... but even this system is still biased since a "Critical Plan or action" is rewarded more than "Avoiding unnecessary violence" or "performing a skill" - the actions that get bigger rewards are those towards which the system is biased (you might agree that this is a desirable bias, but it is biased nonetheless).

The system I think is the "least biased" is probably the "participation award" model - every campaign session your character takes part in and survives gives you, say 200 XP - this is biased toward "in-campaign actions" but is agnostic as to what kind of actions it is rewarding, and I do think that rewarding players that attend sessions more XP than players that don't is a desirable bias. But it's still biased!

I think perhaps the "fairest" system is the goals/rewards model - each PC should, before the session starts, be furnished with several goals and associated rewards. If the player accomplishes a given goal during a session, they receive the associated reward (usually, but not always, XP) at the end of the session. This gives the players agency as to which goals they want to pursue and how they choose to prioritize those goals, and the only subjectivity from the GM is based in setting up the initial reward - once you've given the players "if you do X, you will get Y" you allow them to weigh the relative value of the rewards and prioritize their actions accordingly. This could easily be mixed with other models (for instance, you could have a standing set of "general" rewards such as "survive the session / get 200 XP" or "play in character / get 50 XP" or what have you) but I think this method gives the players the most agency around their advancement and lets them decide what to prioritize in order to drive the story forward, rather than having the DM decide priorities and hand out XP at the end of the session subjectively based on the PCs' actions - instead, the DM decides to weight rewards ahead of time and the players objectively select goals to pursue with that knowledge in mind. Bonus points when players' goals are mutually exclusive, so if Player 1 accomplishes Goal X, player 2 cannot accomplish Goal Y (this is best used in moderation so that parties have to make compromises and realize they cannot do everything, rather than using it to set up conflicts - for instance, I would suggest against goals like "kill NPC Bob" and "prevent NPC Bob from dying" and instead use goals like "deliver this MacGuffin to the village 2 days' travel East from here within 2 days" and "deliver this message to the village 2 days' travel West from here within 2 days" - the players will have to decide which one takes priority - or perhaps they choose to "rescue this NPC in the village 2 days' North from here within 3 days") - in this case, you are driving "meaningful choices" rather than "antagonistic intra-party relationships" and PCs might prioritize the MacGuffin this week for Player A's reward with an understanding that next time there is such a fork in the road, they will prioritize Player B's or Player C's reward.

Hopefully that made sense on the page; it made sense in my head.
 
Last edited:

I need a new XP system, gang. The kind that awards XP for different activities, not just killing monsters. Allow me to set some expectations. Experience Points (XP) are a metagame feature that characters (generally) earn for doing things in-game, and contribute to level-ups which players use to upgrade their characters. The character levels are tailored by players for characters - so a warrior could get better at fighting with a new level, or an innkeeper could get better at inn-running. However, it's generally a system for adventurous types.

So what are the things that adventurous types do, which of them are worth XP, and how many are too many? (One, monster killing, is obviously too few.) If those questions were too easy, chew on this: what are the relative weights of each of those activities? I.e. is killing the boss worth half as much as rescuing his victim? Is finding a statue worth more than finding coin?

Ideas, please!
What you reward you will get more of...so figure out what you want your players to do and pay out x.p. for those things.

1. Playing in character
2. Playing any disadvantages they have (this is GURPS but it could apply to something you just agree upon in D&D).
3. Treasure (if you want the quest for gold to be the primary reason).
4. Default X xp every session at the rate you want to advance. You can always review the session and grade it for how it progressed the story and pay based on that outcome.

Another thing. My opinion is you should not advance from 15th level to 16th level in the same time you advanced from 3rd to 4th.

In fact a rule of thumb might be 45 sessions to hit 9th level. Another 45 to hit 13th level. Another 45 to hit 16th level. Another 45 will put you half way through 17.
 



If you want an actually unbiased XP system, award XP per session or hour played. Anything else will have a bias toward whatever the thing you give XP rewards for.
I have been just going with milestone leveling for a while now. I find it is a game where I make adventures that I hope with offer each PC something and some time to shine. If a player made a PC for combat- check, roleplay- check, etc... Each player bring in some ideas and fun each week and all the PCs tend to help complete the adventure.

If you reward killing monsters, then all the monsters will die. Same for giving a great player speech before each combat or for avoiding each combat. Try to offer some of everything and the players will try or do some of everything.
  1. By Roleplaying Well
  2. By Achieving Party Goals
  3. By Defeating Monsters and Opponents
  4. By Acquiring Treasure
  5. By Performing Exceptional Actions
These are all part of a decent adventure. Granting XP for completing adventures is kind of baked into this. I do not find a need to break things out for more bookkeeping.

The new Boderlands box has the PCs getting 2nd level once they explore and complete a mission in each of the zones of play. This forces the party to explore the Keep, Wilderness and the Caves to gain a level. Maybe not the best reward for a so-called sandbox, but works with new players and DMs. I believe they gain 3rd level by doing 2 more quests in each location.
 


". . . players set their character's own XP triggers." I don't expect a lot of players to say, "my triggers are whatever the typical adventurer should have, regardless of who it is."
I guess I'm not understanding your definition of bias.

Players set their triggers to whatever it is they want their character to do. The fighter who wants to kill things and save the princess sets their triggers to killing things and saving the princess. The ranger sets their triggers to leading the group to the elven kingdom and spotting and avoiding danger when they're in the woods. The thief sets their triggers to disarming traps and looting the coin purses of rich nobles.

The game isn't telling them what to set their BIGs to, to gain XP. They're telling the game what they want it to give them XP for.
 

Did op ever explain why they connect combat/killing xp with milestone? Or why milestone is so biased?
I guess I'm not understanding your definition of bias.

Players set their triggers to whatever it is they want their character to do. The fighter who wants to kill things and save the princess sets their triggers to killing things and saving the princess. The ranger sets their triggers to leading the group to the elven kingdom and spotting and avoiding danger when they're in the woods. The thief sets their triggers to disarming traps and looting the coin purses of rich nobles.

The game isn't telling them what to set their BIGs to, to gain XP. They're telling the game what they want it to give them XP for.
It seems to me that when they say "bias", what they actually mean is more like "editorialized", in that milestone leveling and player-driven goals are both interpreted rather than objective. I think any XP system that promotes playing the "right way" is inherently not objective, so I think it's a pretty weak difference, but that's me.
 

Remove ads

Top