A Completely Unbiased XP System

[Staffan]

I guess I'm not understanding your definition of bias.

Players set their triggers to whatever it is they want their character to do. The fighter who wants to kill things and save the princess sets their triggers to killing things and saving the princess. The ranger sets their triggers to leading the group to the elven kingdom and spotting and avoiding danger when they're in the woods. The thief sets their triggers to disarming traps and looting the coin purses of rich nobles.

The game isn't telling them what to set their BIGs to, to gain XP. They're telling the game what they want it to give them XP for.

That's one of the things Storypath Ultra gives XP for. Every character has two short-term aspirations (what do they want to do in this session) and one long-term aspiration (what to they want to do on a moderate-term basis), in addition to a group aspiration (the more plot-relevant goal) set by the GM. A character gets 1 XP for attendance, 1 XP for achieving a short-term aspiration (with an additional XP if all characters achieve one in the same session, so you are encouraged to help the other players do their thing as well), 2 XP for a long-term aspiration, and 3 XP for a group aspiration. Short-term aspirations reset every session, but long-term ones only do so when everyone has completed theirs. There are also some other bonuses for spending metacurrency and overcoming obstacles.

Short-term aspirations are things like "I want to solve a problem by talking" or "I want to find out a secret." Long-term aspirations are things like "I want to find out what happened to my brother" or "I want to make a deal with a daemon".

 

[GMMichael]

I guess I'm not understanding your definition of bias.

Players set their triggers to whatever it is they want their character to do.

I could be wrong, but I've been going with "unbiased" = "favoring no one in particular."

Choosing your own XP triggers seems to favor your own character . . . unless the choice is "I get XP for accomplishing Jane's goals," or "I get XP when my character suffers."

 

[GMMichael]

Or why milestone is so biased?

Some players don't want to hear, "you'll level up when I want you to."

 

[Barner Cobblewood]

Why not just

I could be wrong, but I've been going with "unbiased" = "favoring no one in particular."

It's an interesting problem, but I think it cannot be accomplished in any game based on competition between the players (I include the GM among the players as they have monsters / NPCs in play) and no dedicated referee. Why not just play a game without XP?

 

[pemerton]

". . . players set their character's own XP triggers." I don't expect a lot of players to say, "my triggers are whatever the typical adventurer should have, regardless of who it is."

I don't really follow.

Here are some examples from my current game:

Creed: These are dark times – the free peoples must stand together!

Belief: Only the rich get anywhere in this world – I must become rich!

Goal: To recover my gear from the nandies who stole it

Instinct: Always scavenge for loot​

I don't see where the bias is, other than being biased towards what the player thinks is interesting for the play of the game with their PC. (Which is hardly an objectionable bias for an RPG.)

And I don't know what you mean by "a trigger the typical adventurer should have". Is there some goal, or belief, that all adventurers should have in common?

I could be wrong, but I've been going with "unbiased" = "favoring no one in particular."

Choosing your own XP triggers seems to favor your own character . . . unless the choice is "I get XP for accomplishing Jane's goals," or "I get XP when my character suffers."

What bias is introduced by every player choosing a goal, belief etc for their PC? Who is favoured by that?

 

[GMMichael]

I don't really follow.

Here are some examples from my current game:

Creed: These are dark times – the free peoples must stand together!​

​

Belief: Only the rich get anywhere in this world – I must become rich!​

​

Goal: To recover my gear from the nandies who stole it​

​

Instinct: Always scavenge for loot​

I don't see where the bias is, other than being biased towards what the player thinks is interesting for the play of the game with their PC. (Which is hardly an objectionable bias for an RPG.)

And I don't know what you mean by "a trigger the typical adventurer should have". Is there some goal, or belief, that all adventurers should have in common?

What bias is introduced by every player choosing a goal, belief etc for their PC? Who is favoured by that?

I'm sure it's great for your game. I'm not looking to argue/explain it.

 

[bsss]

I don't really follow.

Here are some examples from my current game:

Creed: These are dark times – the free peoples must stand together!​

​

Belief: Only the rich get anywhere in this world – I must become rich!​

​

Goal: To recover my gear from the nandies who stole it​

​

Instinct: Always scavenge for loot​

I don't see where the bias is, other than being biased towards what the player thinks is interesting for the play of the game with their PC. (Which is hardly an objectionable bias for an RPG.)

And I don't know what you mean by "a trigger the typical adventurer should have". Is there some goal, or belief, that all adventurers should have in common?

What bias is introduced by every player choosing a goal, belief etc for their PC? Who is favoured by that?

You're asking the right questions, but the problem is in reality you have to ignore the "unbiased" part of the question. GMMichael is working towards a list like:

Befriend NPC
Defeat NPC
Collect treasure
Discover secret
Quest-specific other

Inherently, this is biased towards what the DM wants to reward, and the potential goals of the PCs do not necessarily correlate to XP. A "typical" goal is what the GM thinks the goals should be in this case. The language of the question doesn't match the intent.

 

[Vrindlevine]

Some players don't want to hear, "you'll level up when I want you to."

Ok so the goalposts have shifted now. You clearly said you wanted an XP system that rewards different activities, when Milestone was suggested you said you were trying to avoid it but have still not explained why you connect Milestone with killing monsters (which was your original premise). Now the issue is that your players dislike the arbitrary nature of Milestone, which is totally reasonable, but not part of the original premise.

Now Milestone usually keys off of progress in the story, but not always. Sometimes its just keys off of time and I can think of pretty much nothing in this universe that is less biased then the unrelenting march of passing days. As long as the party is playing the game and doing any number of things, not just killing monsters, but accomplishing goals either player or GM set, they can level up based on # of sessions played, PF2e probably has some good guidelines on this.

However since it seems like your players want to have some understanding of when exactly they will level and it seems like you want to stick with a number-based XP system. In which case I think you are on the right track with your previous comment.

Befriend NPC
Defeat NPC
Collect treasure
Discover secret
Quest-specific other

You've pretty much got it, that small list is about 99% of what players do in your average game, maybe its missing "explore location", but you could easily add more. All you have to do is attach values to them. I know your going to say "Aha! That would mean applying my biases!" Not so fast!

We can avoid bias one of 2 ways when assigning values, the first is by setting the XP gained to be based primarily on the time put into those activities and the effort required (for DnD adjacent systems, the rough "CR" of the encounters). The second is to discuss with your players (for each group) what they think should be rewarded more or less, maybe even get them to rank activities based on how much XP each should give, you could even poll people here, this will still be biased of course but its sort of uh "XP by committee" which is better than just the GM's biases.

Hopefully you figure out something you can be happy with, your players are lucky your putting so much thought into your games and their well-being .

 

[Special Unicorn]

For non combat encounter, I recommend something like Pathfinder 2E. You gain a fixed number of XP based on how difficult the non combat encounter was. e.g. Convincing a drunk to have another drink 10xp. Convincing the king to hand over the keys to his kingdom 1000xp

 

[Brewhammer]

Milestone leveling has always been wildly popular with the groups I run games for, to the point where we use it for every system that has leveling now.