A Completely Unbiased XP System

I firmly believe any XP system should encourage the behavior you want to see from your players.

So how about this?

These actions earn you XP
  • Turning up each week
  • Keeping notes and/or remembering NPC names.
  • Knowing the rules, particularly in regards to your character.
  • Being ready when it's your turn in combat.
  • Paying attention when you aren't in the spotlight.
  • Drawing other players into your spotlight moment.
These might earn you-as-player xp but they won't help your character very much as the character is neither earning nor receiving them. :)
These actions loose you XP
  • Screwing over other party members (without their OOC consent).
  • Screwing up the game so much the GM has to completely change direction with no notice.
Nah, that's just Tuesday round here.
  • Cancelling without notice, or at least a reasonable excuse.
I can, though, get behind this one, though in truth it hasn't been an issue for quite some time.
 

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The player who chooses the easier-to-achieve in-fiction goal etc. is favoured.

If your goal is to rebuild your family's farm and my goal is to become Emperor of Rome, you'll level up through goal achievement long before I will! :)
Your goals should ideally be more-or-less immediately actionable, or at least in no more than the medium term (Storypath Ultra has short-term aspirations that are supposed to be doable within one session, and long-term aspirations that takes a while but not forever). So the goal wouldn't be "become Emperor", it would be something like "become a Senator" or "command troops" – something that's a stepping stone to the ultimate goal.

Also in SPU, you can't fulfill a long-term aspiration until all the PCs have checked off theirs, so (a) you're incentivized not to shoot for the moon and (b) no player gets too far ahead.
 

Now Milestone usually keys off of progress in the story, but not always. Sometimes its just keys off of time and I can think of pretty much nothing in this universe that is less biased then the unrelenting march of passing days.
The passage of time in a lot of RPGing is pretty much up to the GM to narrate. So hardly unbiased!

You've pretty much got it, that small list is about 99% of what players do in your average game, maybe its missing "explore location", but you could easily add more.
I think that list is missing quite a bit. Where is break out of jail or make a <something or other> or help my friend with their problem? (Just to think of a few possibilities.)
 

You're asking the right questions, but the problem is in reality you have to ignore the "unbiased" part of the question. GMMichael is working towards a list like:


Inherently, this is biased towards what the DM wants to reward, and the potential goals of the PCs do not necessarily correlate to XP. A "typical" goal is what the GM thinks the goals should be in this case. The language of the question doesn't match the intent.
For what it's worth, I'm zeroing in on some criteria for XP awards. This is the general idea: each challenge is worth XP. No challenge, no XP. Each award is multiplied by its expected appropriate level, and quest-critical criteria are worth twice the non-critical criteria.

Befriend NPC
Defeat NPC
Collect treasure
Discover secret
Quest-specific other

They're intentionally vague - they need to apply to a lot of different quests. As in, an NPC isn't necessarily a "monster,"* defeating doesn't have to mean killing, treasure is about anything of value (intentionally placed as a reward for PCs), a secret could be door/information/etc. The quest-specific other is basically things you need to complete the quest, as long as they're discrete and challenging.
When I look at that list, I wonder why we have (say) befriending and defeating NPCs but not, say, defending a NPC or avenging a NPC (who has been wronged) or embarrassing a NPC, etc. And also where the quests come from - I mean, one could think of Goals in Torchbearer (and analogous Beliefs in Burning Wheel) as player-authored quests. Which are not foreign to D&D - the 4e PHB and DMG both discuss player-authored quests as a good idea for that RPG system.

As it stands, the list could be reduced to Resolve a confrontation with a NPC (befriending and defeating being the two main ways of doing that) and Learn something non-obvious about the scenario (with the collection of treasure and the discovery of secrets being special cases of this).

I also look at the list and wonder what happened to things that are common in Torchbearer and Burning Wheel, but have also been part of the assessment of the quality of D&D play for a long time (typically via the alignment rules) - like standing up for a commitment or fulfilling a vow. TB and BW go further than D&D traditionally has done, by also rewarding things like straining under the burden of a commitment or finding oneself compelled to abandon a vow. This could be added to a very generic list as engage with your PC's value/commitment via your play of your PC. Burning Wheel and Torchbearer have their own reasons - partly principled, partly technical - for getting a bit more detailed and nuanced than that, but it would capture the gist. And doesn't seem to me to be any less objective than resolving confrontations and learning non-obvious things.

Allowing players to choose their own X.P. rewards can lead to something just as ridiculous as "My PC gets X.P. when they pick flowers or go out for ice cream" - while playing a fantasy-adventure campaign.
Is this "can lead to" based on experience? Or just abstract conjecture?

It's not something I've ever come across; in my experience players want to play the game (that's why they turn up!). And as @Nytmare also posted, if a player authors a goal then it is the GM's job to set obstacles in the way of it.

The player who chooses the easier-to-achieve in-fiction goal etc. is favoured.

If your goal is to rebuild your family's farm and my goal is to become Emperor of Rome, you'll level up through goal achievement long before I will!
As @Nytmare posted, in the advancement system being discussed, XP are awarded for taking action in pursuit of a goal as well as for attaining it. And for struggling with ones commitments as well as for adhering to them.

A player who (for whatever reason) wants to increase their ration of Fate points earned to Persona points earned has a reason to choose goals that are hard to achieve. (This is something I've seen in actual play.)

Additionally, a player somehow actually having a goal of picking flowers mundanely and somehow getting that XP is going to be bored to hell with all of the weird combat stuff that has nothing to do with calm cozy flower-picking in the new level they just earned. Inside D&D, this impossible motivation might as well be meaningless XP at that point anyway. Even as an analogy the example is contrived beyond credulity.
This thread is in General, but a lot of the posts seem to assume that the RPG being played is D&D (or some sort of D&D clone).

Here's an XP system that is unbiased, but quite different from both TB/BW and D&D. It's from Agon 2e (a wonderful Odyssey-flavoured RPG by John Harper): any event or conflict that is a worthy challenge for the PC heroes triggers a contest. The GM rolls (as per the relevant rules) to determine the obstacle; and each player whose hero participates in the challenge rolls (as per the relevant rules) to see if they can succeed against the obstacle. If the roll falls short, the hero suffers and one XP (Glory) is earned; of the heroes who succeed, the one who rolls highest is the best and earns Glory equal to the target number; the other successful heroes earn half that much Glory (round up).

Anything that would make sense within an Odyssey-like contest can be framed as a contest: I've had contests of wits; duels and battles; attempts to persuade or befriend; climbing cliffs and swimming out to sea; sacrificing to the gods and seeking their guidance; etc. I've seen heroes suffer unexpectedly (brought low by their hubris!), and the underdog emerge as the best hero. Sometimes the hero who earns the most glory is the one you would expect (given the dynamics of play, eg how hard/aggressively one player pushes things) but sometimes it's unexpected.

Prince Valiant is yet another XP system, based on Fame, which resembles Agon a little bit but without the competitive element and relying more heavily on GM judgement to set the amount of Fame earned by demonstrating one's prowess.

The list of resolve an encounter and learn some non-obvious thing doesn't even extend to such basic stuff as running a race or defending a besieged castle (neither of which is about defeating a NPC, at least in my experience of adjudicating them).
 
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"DIY Experience" is way too much trouble. Meaninglessly vague goals will only drag a campaign in all the wrong directions. By having clearly-defined X.P. rewards the group always knows exactly when to award X.P. and how much.
 

"DIY Experience" is way too much trouble. Meaninglessly vague goals will only drag a campaign in all the wrong directions. By having clearly-defined X.P. rewards the group always knows exactly when to award X.P. and how much.
I don't know what you have in mind by "meaninglessly vague goals". Nor by "dragging a campaign in all the wrong directions". Do you have any examples in mind, from your own play experience?

But anyway, I've never had any issues with awarding XP in Torchbearer. As per the rules, at the end of the session we go around the table, looking at every PC's Belief, Goal, Creed and Instinct, and determine whether or not a "trigger" has been hit, and awarding Fate and Persona appropriately.

When we play Marvel Heroic RP, or my fantasy hack of it, players adjudicate their own XP awards based on their PC's milestones. That doesn't cause any issues either.

Some of the RPGs that I play use GM-adjudicated awards (eg Prince Valiant), some are purely objective (eg Agon 2e), some are a bit of both (eg D&D 4e), some involve consensus judgement (Burning Wheel and Torchbearer are often like this), some are mostly player-adjudicated (eg MHRP). There's nothing superior about one approach over another.
 

This thread is in General, but a lot of the posts seem to assume that the RPG being played is D&D (or some sort of D&D clone).
I completely missed that we're in General, and just assumed (from the tone of the stuff I was replying to) that we were talking about D&D specifically, yeah. And that's even when I (far earlier) mentioned Cypher's character arcs as my example of what you're describing in terms of player-driven goals. I wouldn't even call them player-adjudicated, so they should be seen by a GM as less "vague" or less "wrong direction", though I don't buy the "wrong direction"-based argument much to begin with anyway.
 

I don't know what you have in mind by "meaninglessly vague goals". Nor by "dragging a campaign in all the wrong directions". Do you have any examples in mind, from your own play experience?
Anything that isn't related to the system and setting. Examples would vary depending on system and setting. Here's one:
  • a party of novice explorers set out to investigate a recently rediscovered old dungeon
A meaningless goal that would drag the party in the wrong direction would be anything that doesn't help the party investigate the dungeon (e.g., picking flowers or going for ice cream). My play experience in similar sessions would involve a clearly-defined list of system & setting specific X.P. rewards, such as from the D&D RC.

I'll also note that if a group wants to RP a party of sentient hot dogs who get X.P. rewards for avoiding being eaten by people and animals, good on you. We can play these games however we like. But, that doesn't mean we'll agree on what's "good" or "better".
 

Here's one:
  • a party of novice explorers set out to investigate a recently rediscovered old dungeon
A meaningless goal that would drag the party in the wrong direction would be anything that doesn't help the party investigate the dungeon (e.g., picking flowers or going for ice cream).
That's an easy problem to solve, though, I think is the point being made. This hypothetical character has already picked all the mundane flowers --- the next cool flower to pick, the one that gives them new experiences they seek out, lives in the recently rediscovered old dungeon. They get to tell their botanical character story in a dungeon-delving game, you get to run a dungeon-delving game. Done!

The only difference is you've defined dungeon delving as the ends, but for that PC, it's the means.
 

When I look at that list, I wonder why we have (say) befriending and defeating NPCs but not, say, defending a NPC or avenging a NPC (who has been wronged) or embarrassing a NPC, etc. And also where the quests come from - I mean, one could think of Goals in Torchbearer (and analogous Beliefs in Burning Wheel) as player-authored quests. Which are not foreign to D&D - the 4e PHB and DMG both discuss player-authored quests as a good idea for that RPG system.

As it stands, the list could be reduced to Resolve a confrontation with a NPC (befriending and defeating being the two main ways of doing that) and Learn something non-obvious about the scenario (with the collection of treasure and the discovery of secrets being special cases of this).
Defending/avenging an NPC is the same as defeating an NPC - the difference lies in which NPC we're talking about.

Here's an XP system that is unbiased, but quite different from both TB/BW and D&D. It's from Agon 2e (a wonderful Odyssey-flavoured RPG by John Harper): any event or conflict that is a worthy challenge for the PC heroes triggers a contest. The GM rolls (as per the relevant rules) to determine the obstacle; and each player whose hero participates in the challenge rolls (as per the relevant rules) to see if they can succeed against the obstacle. If the roll falls short, the hero suffers and one XP (Glory) is earned; of the heroes who succeed, the one who rolls highest is the best and earns Glory equal to the target number; the other successful heroes earn half that much Glory (round up).

Anything that would make sense within an Odyssey-like contest can be framed as a contest: I've had contests of wits; duels and battles; attempts to persuade or befriend; climbing cliffs and swimming out to sea; sacrificing to the gods and seeking their guidance; etc.
"Resolve a confrontation" and "learn something non-obvious" (assuming each is a challenge) can be good criteria, but they approach, if not dip into, the line of anything is worth XP. They're also too subjective for my current needs - up until the dice come out. Which raises the spectre of an earlier post: rolling high is worth XP 😥

Not that any of this is wrong! One thing an XP system needs to address (which also was probably mentioned upthread) is: what's the consequence of gaining XP? If it's "gaining combat power" (D&D), then "confrontation" should read "combat." If gaining XP gets you, say, a new personality aspect, then "resolve a confrontation" might be perfect.
 

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