A Completely Unbiased XP System

[Nytmare]

"DIY Experience" is way too much trouble. Meaninglessly vague goals will only drag a campaign in all the wrong directions. By having clearly-defined X.P. rewards the group always knows exactly when to award X.P. and how much.

Too much trouble how? If you're specifically looking for an unbiased XP system, then making a set in stone list of clearly defined, campaign specific goals that drag the game in one or more specific directions means that the system IS biased. Making an unbiased list that includes a written line for every feasible action a character could take is impossible.

Triggered XP systems like Torchbearer's are clearly defined, even if they are open ended. If the triggers are NOT clearly defined, you discuss and revise them until they are.

I've never seen or heard of a TB or BW game being dragged in the wrong direction because of a character's BIGs, primarily because it can't be. The game swerves in the direction dictated by the triggers of the characters. Imagining fictitious "what if" scenarios where bad agents purposefully derail a game by abusing their game-given abilities to set inconsequential goals is ridiculous.

 

[Vrindlevine]

The passage of time in a lot of RPGing is pretty much up to the GM to narrate. So hardly unbiased

Im talking about time out of game. Certainly if I had power over such the world would be very different indeed.

 

[Lanefan]

Anything that isn't related to the system and setting. Examples would vary depending on system and setting. Here's one:

• a party of novice explorers set out to investigate a recently rediscovered old dungeon

A meaningless goal that would drag the party in the wrong direction would be anything that doesn't help the party investigate the dungeon (e.g., picking flowers or going for ice cream).

Going for ice cream isn't related but, say, if they they get distracted en route to the old dungeon by some bandits and decide on the fly to deal with those instead, though that might be a different direction and goal than originally intended I can't possibly see it as being "wrong".

 

[pemerton]

Anything that isn't related to the system and setting. Examples would vary depending on system and setting. Here's one:

• a party of novice explorers set out to investigate a recently rediscovered old dungeon

A meaningless goal that would drag the party in the wrong direction would be anything that doesn't help the party investigate the dungeon (e.g., picking flowers or going for ice cream). My play experience in similar sessions would involve a clearly-defined list of system & setting specific X.P. rewards, such as from the D&D RC.

Sorry, are you saying that the issue you say you're identifying - of players setting goals for fantasy adventure PCs like picking flowers, which then take the game in the wrong direction - has happened in D&D when using the Rules Compendium XP rules?

 

[pemerton]

Defending/avenging an NPC is the same as defeating an NPC

How so? I mean, I can see in some cases perhaps - but how in general? Eg in a session of Prince Valiant that I GMed, the PCs defended a young heir who had been accused of witchcraft and was being tried in court. Among other things, they found and presented evidence; but I wouldn't say that they defeating any NPCs.

"Resolve a confrontation" and "learn something non-obvious" (assuming each is a challenge) can be good criteria, but they approach, if not dip into, the line of anything is worth XP. They're also too subjective for my current needs - up until the dice come out.

<snip>

One thing an XP system needs to address (which also was probably mentioned upthread) is: what's the consequence of gaining XP? If it's "gaining combat power" (D&D), then "confrontation" should read "combat." If gaining XP gets you, say, a new personality aspect, then "resolve a confrontation" might be perfect.

You seem to have some clear notions in mind of what should or shouldn't be worth XP, but I'm not sure what they are.

 

[Theory of Games]

Sorry, are you saying that the issue you say you're identifying - of players setting goals for fantasy adventure PCs like picking flowers, which then take the game in the wrong direction - has happened in D&D when using the Rules Compendium XP rules?

I'm pointing out that using a system that has well-defined rules for X.P. rewards is IME far superior to DIY X.P. sub-systems such as Milestone or "whatever the players want".

I'm arguing for systematic consistency that can extend to and benefit any group using the RP system. What I am not suggesting is my viewpoint is objectively correct - we can play these systems however we like.

 

[Staffan]

I'm pointing out that using a system that has well-defined rules for X.P. rewards is IME far superior to DIY X.P. sub-systems such as Milestone or "whatever the players want".

Depends on what you want out of the system. If you want the system to provide incentives to playing in a particular way, having it reward you with XP for doing so is one way of doing it. If you want the game to be responsive to player desires, other methods are better.

I've probably already mentioned it in this thread, but a lot of the posts I see decrying "softer" XP systems point out that such systems are easier to abuse ("You want XP for picking flowers?"). To me, that seems like more of a table issue. Presumably we're playing the game to have fun, so why would you try to artificially push players toward doing things they do not find fun?

 

[Theory of Games]

Depends on what you want out of the system. If you want the system to provide incentives to playing in a particular way, having it reward you with XP for doing so is one way of doing it. If you want the game to be responsive to player desires, other methods are better.

I've probably already mentioned it in this thread, but a lot of the posts I see decrying "softer" XP systems point out that such systems are easier to abuse ("You want XP for picking flowers?"). To me, that seems like more of a table issue. Presumably we're playing the game to have fun, so why would you try to artificially push players toward doing things they do not find fun?

Well, yeah. I already mentioned more than once that ultimately we can play these systems however we like. If a group doesn't like "A", then try "B-Z" until you find something more enjoyable. Rules should be instruments of Funmanship, not shackles.

Unless you're into shackles

 

[robertsconley]

I need a new XP system, gang. The kind that awards XP for different activities, not just killing monsters.

So I've been using variants of this since the mid 1980s whenever I run a campaign using a version of D&D. Hope it is useful.

From the Attic: Experience Points Rules

Around 1983 I realized that I didn't like XP for gold or magic items. By then I ran several groups through the Majestic Wilderlands and real...

batintheattic.blogspot.com

I also use this without the formulas to award points in my GURPS and Fantasy HERO campaigns. Also, when using this for those campaigns, I don't award opposition XP. That gets folded into the milestone award.

The key element is that players set the goals. Most of the time I do this informally by listening to the table chatter and talking outside of sessions. But you can do it formally if needed. Also, this is from the player's handbook portion of my Majestic Fantasy RPG, which is why there is a lack of referee-specific information like the above. I'm putting together the final draft of the system and haven't gotten to that part yet.

---

Awarding Experience​

Characters are awarded experience points (XP) for overcoming creatures and other characters, and for achieving their goals. This system is designed to be as neutral as possible about what players choose to pursue within the setting. What matters is that players make decisions as their characters and actively pursue opportunities that further their goals.

Opposition XP​

Every creature in the Majestic Fantasy RPG is assigned a Challenge Level based on the total number of hit dice they possess. This is modified upward if they possess numerous special abilities. This can range from 15 XP for a 1 HD creature up to 2,000 XP for a 12 HD creature. Characters are rated similarly, except it is by level.

The creature or character does not have to be killed to count for XP. It only needs to be overcome in a way that removes it as meaningful opposition to what the characters are trying to accomplish. This may include defeating it, capturing it, driving it away, negotiating a settlement, bypassing it when it stands in the way of a goal, or turning it into an ally. Merely fleeing from an opponent does not normally count as overcoming it. The group may earn XP for overcoming the same opponent again if circumstances have significantly changed and the opponent is once again in opposition to the character's plans.

At the end of the session or at a natural safe haven within the setting, the total XP of all the characters and creatures that are overcome is tallied and divided evenly among all player characters who participated in the adventure. Round any fractions down. In rare instances when it is clear a single player character is responsible, the XP for that individual creature or character is awarded to that PC only.

Hirelings and Allies​

In general, when awarding opposition XP and hirelings, the group counts all hirelings as a single character for the purpose of dividing opposition XP. That share of the XP is then divided equally among hirelings for advancement.

Allies who function as regular members of the adventuring party receive a full share of Opposition XP. Temporary allies who accompany the party for a particular adventure, battle, or objective do not receive a share.

Milestone XP​

Milestone XP is awarded when characters accomplish goals they have set for themselves. These goals may be personal goals pursued by a single character or party goals pursued by the group.

The referee doesn't have to record every goal beforehand or formally ask the players. Instead, pay attention to what the players are saying and trying to accomplish as their characters. If the party decides to find a missing merchant, establish an alliance with a nearby village, explore an old ruin, or overthrow a local tyrant, these become potential milestones.

The same applies to personal goals. A Magic-User may seek admission to a particular order, a Fighter may want revenge against an old enemy, or a Cleric may work to establish a shrine. The better the referee understands what the characters are trying to accomplish, the more opportunities there are to award Milestone XP.

Milestone XP is not an award for theatrical acting. A player does not need to speak in character, use a distinctive voice, or portray a personality different from their own. What matters is that the player makes decisions and acts as if they were there as their character.

Also keep in mind that a major goal often has many smaller goals that serve as stepping stones toward achieving the larger goal. These goals may earn their own smaller Milestone XP awards.

Milestone Awards​

When a character or party accomplishes a goal, determine the Milestone Rating and calculate the award.

Milestone XP = Base XP × Character Level × Milestone Rating

The default Base XP is 100. Use 50 for a slower campaign or 200 for a faster campaign. Values between these may also be used. The Base XP serves as the referee's primary way of adjusting the overall rate of character advancement. Once chosen, it should normally remain the same unless the group wants to change the campaign's rate of advancement.

A truly extraordinary accomplishment, one that is likely to become part of the history of the setting, may be given a Rating of 5. Such awards should be rare.

For example, a 4th-level character completing a Significant Milestone in a campaign with a Base XP of 100 earns:
100 × 4 × 2 = 800 XP

Apply any normal experience bonuses after determining the Milestone XP award.

Personal and Party Milestones​

Award a personal milestone to the character whose goal was accomplished. Other characters may assist without receiving the milestone. However, if the other characters adopt that goal as one of their own and meaningfully pursue it, treat it as a party milestone instead. For example, the party may decide to help an exiled Viking prince reclaim his throne.

Award a party milestone to every participating character. Calculate the XP separately using each character's level.

An accomplishment can sometimes satisfy both personal and party goals. Usually, award the most appropriate milestone rather than giving two awards for the same achievement. Give separate awards only when two genuinely different goals were accomplished.

Determining a Goal​

Players do not have to announce, "This is my goal formally." Most of the time their intentions will become clear through play.

If the characters hear rumors about an abandoned keep and decide to explore it, exploration of the keep becomes a goal. If they discover prisoners inside and decide to rescue them, that becomes another possible goal. If they later decide to hunt down the people responsible, a new goal has emerged.

Goals can change. Characters may abandon one objective when circumstances change and pursue another. There is no penalty for doing so.

The referee may provide clues, rumors, patrons, threats, and other situations that suggest possible courses of action. However, these do not become milestones simply because the referee prepared them. The players decide which goals matter by choosing what their characters pursue.

Rating Milestones​

Judge the rating primarily by the significance of what was accomplished. The effort, difficulty, and risk involved can be considered when deciding between two ratings.

A character cannot create a major milestone merely by declaring something to be important. "My goal is to cross the street" does not become worth Milestone XP because the player wrote it down. The accomplishment needs to be meaningful within the circumstances of the campaign.

Likewise, a large goal may produce several milestones along the way. If the party intends to overthrow a powerful warlord, securing an alliance with one of his enemies may be a Minor or Significant Milestone. Capturing one of his fortresses may be another. Finally defeating the warlord could be a Major or Great Milestone. Each of these smaller goals acts as a stepping stone toward the greater goal.

Do not award XP for every intermediate task. Award it when the characters have accomplished something that meaningfully changes their circumstances, whether personal or within the larger Living World.

Awarding Milestone XP​

Milestone XP may be awarded immediately when a goal is accomplished or totaled at the end of the session. For longer campaigns, awarding it at the end of the session generally makes bookkeeping easier.

Milestone XP is awarded in addition to XP gained from defeating or overcoming opposition. No experience is awarded merely for acquiring gold or magic items.

Milestone XP lets advancement follow what players choose to pursue. Characters may gain experience through exploration, diplomacy, investigation, politics, warfare, trade, religion, or any other activity that the players consider important during the campaign.

Finally, Milestone XP is awarded along with any Opposition XP earned as part of achieving the goal. A character finally gaining vengeance by killing his father's killer will gain both the milestone XP for achieving the goal and the opposition XP for killing his father's killer.

Rob's Notes: In practice, adventuring still tends to involve a fair amount of fighting and treasure hunting, but it's usually a means to an end, as players decide how to trash the setting. I found that when I award XP for the goals players set for themselves, the campaign often takes unexpected turns. A group of hard-bitten mercenaries defending the war-torn frontier of a kingdom may eventually decide that building a crossroads and clearing the surrounding wilderness of dangers is their priority now.

 

[Clint_L]

"Advancing the story" isn't a parameter I really care about, in that it assumes there's a story in place waiting to be advanced.

This also, and immediately, introduces a risk of severe bias if the GM has specific ideas on how-where-which way the story is intended to go and then only gives xp for moving the story in that direction.

And if there isn't a pre-set story then no matter what they do they'll get xp, because no matter what they do they're advancing the emergent story; which brings us right back to the issue of their potentially getting xp for doing nothing.

I’m curious, because you’ve raised that last point several times. Have you ever had a player who showed up to play a game and then preferred to sit around and do nothing?

I’ve never had it happen. I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t find something better to do with their time, or why we’d invite them.