A Disconnect with CHR?

[Water Bob]

There's an aspect of the game I don't think the rules handle quite well. I'm rolling up a bad-guy NPC tonight. I like to do that because, as I roll, I discover who the character "is". I make assumptions about him given the dice throws. And, this helps me make the NPC unique when he interacts with the PCs. It helps make the character memorable and not just a faceless mook to get slaughtered.

So, tonight's bad guy is a 1st level Hyperborean Soldier (for the Conan RPG). On NPCs, I roll 3d6, then arrange to taste (on elites, I roll 4d6, drop lowest, as I do with the PCs). I didn't roll to bad for this guy: 17, 12, 15, 9, 12, 7.

I threw the "7" into CHR. Hyperboreans have a racial -2 to that stat, so the NPC gets CHR 5.

This started me to thinking....very low CHR. I'm going to give him a visual penalty. This guy's got a scar running down his face and cheek, through his hair. This was probably due to the boy getting sliced in the head a while back. He survived, but not without this horrible, massive scar that disfigures his face so bad that he looks like Frankenstein or the bad side of Two Face.

When I started giving the character skills, I came to Intimidate. His low CHR really hinders him with the skill. I know CHR is not about the way a character looks but rather his strength of personality. But, the way a person looks does have some impact on it.

If you just saw an opponent like that, though, wouldn't it tend to scare the heck out of you? Shouldn't this strengthen his Intimidate instead of lower it?

I can understand Diplomacy and Bluff, Disguise and Gather Information being negatively affected by this....but shouldn't it strengthen Intimidate?

I guess the CHR score means he can't sell it, right? He comes across as weak? A push over?

If that's the case, then how would you work this if the character had the visual impediment and a high CHR score?

Maybe, the best way to take care of this is to use a circumstancial modifier for the scar?

 

[airwalkrr]

In D&D there is a variant rule in the DMG 33 which discusses using different abilities with skills. I use this rule from time to time whenever I feel it is relevant. Intimidate is one of those cases which comes into play often. If you are interrogating a prisoner and making veiled threats then Cha is probably best. But if you are trying to demoralize an opponent in combat by making an impressive show of strength like bending a metal bar with your arms, then Str might be more appropriate. Or if you attempt to flash your weapons around in a dazzling acrobatic display then Dex might even work. Ignore the Cha when it doesn't make sense and use whatever ability you feel is more appropriate.

It can work with other skills too. Suppose you are scouting out an area to find a good spot to hide for an ambush. Making a Hide check with Wis representing your awareness of your surroundings instead of Dex might be more appropriate.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I guess the CHR score means he can't sell it, right? He comes across as weak? A push over?

Perhaps he's smallish, quiet or reserved, in part because of his scarring. Perhaps the injury that scarred him gave him a speech impediment.

Heck, I knew a guy who was huge but quiet. Very introverted. But pick a fight with him- as did several bullies who misinterpreted his demeanor for cowardice- and you'd get utterly leveled.

 

[Water Bob]

In D&D there is a variant rule in the DMG 33 which discusses using different abilities with skills.

Yes, that rule made it over to the Conan game in a splat book, allowing different forms of intimidation. If a character does an impressive display of his weapons, martial-artist style, then that might be a DEX based Intimidate throw, but a big, hulking, SOB that you don't think you can take down might be a CON based Intimidate throw.

What I'm talking about is a huge scar on the character, and that's got to be CHR based, don't you think?

Yet, his CHR is low making it harder for him to Intimidate when the scar and the way he looks should really help him.

Perhaps he's smallish, quiet or reserved, in part because of his scarring. Perhaps the injury that scarred him gave him a speech impediment.

Heck, I knew a guy who was huge but quiet.

Sure, but how would you represent, stat-wise, someone who is repulisive and very strong at Intimidation?

That's the heart of the question.

You've got someone with body odor, green teeth, and a Z-Z Top beard. His skin is like sun dried leather, and you have to Save or Die when he breathes on you.

On top of this, he's got a grim attitude, thinks the world is out to get him, and couldn't carry on a decent dialogue with someone if his life depended on it.

What I've just described is someone with a low CHR score, yes? He has no personal magnetism. He pushes people away with what he says, how he acts, and how he looks.

But....shouldn't this person also be good at Intimidation? All those things I just listed that should indicate a low CHR should work for the character when he tries to Intimidate others. Don't ya think?

This is the "disconnect" I'm talking about in the Thread Subjectline.

I mean, you wouldn't give this guy a high CHR, would you? But, if he had a high CHR, he'd be good at Intimidate and unrealistically good at influincing others.

 

[kitcik]

This is one I've thought about in the past and I don't like the variant rule. Here's why: regardless of the situation, a major part of any intimidate check is your force of personality. There's a lot of strong or dexterous people that just cannot be convincingly intimidating.

Therefore, I prefer Water Bob's original, simple answer - a situational bonus.

If Str is needed for an Intimidate check, I would add the Str modifier (or some portion thereof, based on the situation) to the Cha modifier. Etc.

As far as the scar - depends on the situation again, The difficulty here is that D&D has combined personality and comeliness into one score, whereas the skill Intimidate might benefit from a high personality score and a low comeliness score. And if you allowed players to determine what is driving their charisma, I think they would try to metagame it. So, you just have to make a situational call as a DM.

 

[Croesus]

What I'm talking about is a huge scar on the character, and that's got to be CHR based, don't you think?

Not necessarily. Charisma represents how well someone can influence others, strength of personality, and such things. Appearance can be a part of that, but doesn't have to be. Sometimes a scar is just a scar.

Sure, but how would you represent, stat-wise, someone who is repulisive and very strong at Intimidation?

That's the heart of the question.

You've got someone with body odor, green teeth, and a Z-Z Top beard. His skin is like sun dried leather, and you have to Save or Die when he breathes on you.

On top of this, he's got a grim attitude, thinks the world is out to get him, and couldn't carry on a decent dialogue with someone if his life depended on it.

What I've just described is someone with a low CHR score, yes? He has no personal magnetism. He pushes people away with what he says, how he acts, and how he looks.

Perfect example of what I'm talking about. One person may look exactly like the guy above and be self conscious of his appearance. He skulks around, covers his face, doesn't talk to anyone, and basically blends into the background. He never takes the lead. Low Charisma.

Another person just like your example has learned to punch back. Someone says something about his looks, he punches the guys lights out. He walks around with a chip on his shoulder. Basically a loaner who trusts no one. Low Charisma, but with Skill Focus: Intimidation.

Lastly, you could take someone who looks like your example, but is better at manipulating people. Some he intimidates, with others he appeals to their self-interest. He knows what buttons to push. High Charisma with Skill Focus: Intimidation, Skill Focus: Persuasion.

Appearance is just one facet of Charisma, and not the most important. As I've described above, you can make three different characters, all with the exact same physical description, but with very different personalities, strengths, and weaknesses.

 

[airwalkrr]

Yes, that rule made it over to the Conan game in a splat book, allowing different forms of intimidation. If a character does an impressive display of his weapons, martial-artist style, then that might be a DEX based Intimidate throw, but a big, hulking, SOB that you don't think you can take down might be a CON based Intimidate throw.

What I'm talking about is a huge scar on the character, and that's got to be CHR based, don't you think?

Yet, his CHR is low making it harder for him to Intimidate when the scar and the way he looks should really help him.

If that's the case, then make it into a character trait a la Unearthed Arcana. He gains a +1 bonus on Intimidate checks and a -1 penalty on Diplomacy and Bluff checks.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sure, but how would you represent, stat-wise, someone who is repulisive and very strong at Intimidation?

Cha is very abstract, and but for some optional rules in 2Ed, D&D (and its derivatives) always presented the conundrum of attractiveness and impressiveness being rolled together in one stat.

High Cha can represent a PC who is ugly but impressive, attractive but introverted, or even someone who is both good looking AND impresses those around him. In the first 2 cases, their positive side overwhelms their negatives.

Low Cha can represent a PC who is ugly but impressive, attractive but introverted, or even someone who is both bad looking AND repels those around him. In the first 2 cases, their negative side overwhelms their positives.

 

[Dandu]

How can scars lower Cha if chicks dig scars?

 

[Water Bob]

Cha is very abstract, and but for some optional rules in 2Ed, D&D (and its derivatives) always presented the conundrum of attractiveness and impressiveness being rolled together in one stat.

High Cha can represent a PC who is ugly but impressive, attractive but introverted, or even someone who is both good looking AND impresses those around him. In the first 2 cases, their positive side overwhelms their negatives.

Low Cha can represent a PC who is ugly but impressive, attractive but introverted, or even someone who is both bad looking AND repels those around him. In the first 2 cases, their negative side overwhelms their positives.

I think this hits the nail on the head.

Traditionally (with respect to 1E and 2E AD&D), high CHR has meant "very charismatic". We're talking about the impressive leaders here. The well spoken. Those that are easily liked. Those that have a personal presence that other naturally gravitate to.

This is the Paladin version of CHR.

3E has seemed to have expanded the role of CHR, making it important to mages, and turning the traditional Paladin version of CHR on its ear. Now, a vile, undead sorceror who commands legions of troops will have a high CHR. The crazy man, worshipped as a god, head of the evil cult, will have a high CHR. Both of those examples are about as far from the Paladin version of CHR as you can get.

Really, 3E has brought with it a broader definition of what the CHR stat measures.




Game-wise, I feel that CHR should have regional modifiers placed upon it, too. Women may be less respected in one part of the world than the other. Maybe the character's race plays a part, whether we're talking about human skin color or elves and dwarves. The dwarf that is loved by his peers would have a negative modifier placed on his CHR when among the snooty, dwarf-debasing elves, for example.





But...

We still have a disconnect with the Intimidate skill.

What if you've got a huge, 6' 7" beast of a man, muscle bound, weighing 312 lbs, gripping a small tree banded with iron spikes that is about to smite you to the ground.

Yet...

This giant of a warrior is not good at all with his force of personality. He's not a good leader. He's a better follower. "Gurk! Smite that intruder!"

"Yeesssss. Gurk smite!"

Maybe he's a slope-head, none too bright, also.

If you see him standing there, holding his club, determined to beat you to a fine pulp....

....isn't that Intimidating in spite of the character's low CHR score?

And, does this bring us back to what I suggested above? The GM uses a situational modifier "to make the rules do the right thing"?