A road not taken: What if there had been no 4E

Mercurius

Legend
In my recent search to fill in my RPG collection from the last five years of 3.5 products that I missed, I have been struck by the sheer number of Wizards of the Coast hardcover books that were published. I mean, there's got to be close to a hundred, if we include campaign settings and uber-adventures, maybe more (does anyone know off hand?). It got me thinking: Let's say Wizards didn't "reboot" Dungeons & Dragons with 4E...what could they have done? Or to be more specific, what could they have possibly published and continued making money? Profitability is key as I'm sure we can all come up with books we would have liked to see, but most of our ideas are probably rather particular and wouldn't have made WotC enough to even bother in the first place.

My question boils down to this: If WotC had not come out with 4E, what should they have done? What could they have done without spiraling down and eventually out of business (at least with D&D), as had basically happened with TSR in the late '90s with the glut of 2E? Would it have been at all possible to continue with 3.5E indefinitely, while still making enough profit not to greatly downsize the company? Or could it be that 4E was absolutely necessary for the survival of the Dungeons & Dragons brand of Wizards of the Coast?

It is my opinion that the question of whether or not WotC should have come out with 4E is a moot point: they had to. There is only so much that can be published within an "edition cycle" without getting extremely obscure. As it was WotC was getting rather obscure in the last few years (although with seemingly some real gems coming out because all the basics were covered). At a certain point WotC had to come out with 4E, just as they will eventually have to come out with 5E.

Now 3.5E fans could argue that a less drastic revision would have sufficed, that they agree with this logic of "publish or perish" but feel that 4E could have been more of a 3.7E that cleared up all the problems with 3.5E (what some feel Pathfinder should have been, but evidently isn't). But instead WotC created an entirely new iteration of the game, far enough from the previous one to make conversion difficult enough to make buying new books a necessity of one wanted to keep pace with the game (from a business perspective, that's the point, right?).

So my question is primarily directed at 3.5E fans who would have preferred if WotC had updated 3.5E, rather than reboot: What should and could they have done (and still remained profitable)?

I just can't see any way around the necessity of a full reboot. I am not sure what the "proper timing" is, but evidently WotC thought that 2008 wasn't too soon, only eight years after 3E. Could they have waited another couple years? Possibly, but I don't know enough about business to hold to a firm opinion.

I don't know whether or not the size of the D&D division got larger after 3E came out in 2000, but one would assume so; but it may be that the success of 3/3.5E brought about its demise quicker than if it had been less successful. Meaning, because it was so successful WotC churned out all those dozens of hardcovers, thereby "burning through" the edition cycle more quickly than if they had been less successful. Looking at my bookshelf I have 13 4E hardcovers; I know that there are 5 books that I haven't purchased (the two Players Guides, Adventurers Vault 2, Arcane and Divine Power), which makes 18 hardcovers in about 14 months. That seems to be a similar pace as 3.5E was, although again, I haven't done the research to be sure (feel free, someone).

As for 5E, speculating is virtually impossible, but I'll conclude with a couple thoughts. If 1E came out in 1977, 2E in 1989, 3E in 2000, and 4E in 2008, we've seen gaps of 12, 11, and 8 years between editions, which would leave us to believe that 5E will be out no late than 2015, if not sooner (as the number of years between editions has always decreased). But given the economic volatility of the last few years, who knows where we will be in 2015? What the state of the RPG industry will be?
 

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Crothian

First Post
They could have done the DDI and Character Builder for 3ed. With all the options that were published for it just by Wizards it would have been useful and I imagine successful.
 

malraux

First Post
They could have done the DDI and Character Builder for 3ed. With all the options that were published for it just by Wizards it would have been useful and I imagine successful.

With the way the class abilities build on each other, a 3e character builder with all the options from all the books would have been tough and buggy at best.
 


BryonD

Hero
I was very strongly pro-4E when it was announced.

A full re-boot is no problem whatsoever.

I wanted 4E, but I wanted an advanced detailed game. I'm not interested in the way to quick and simple and far to shallow and homogeneous product that was produced.

I want 5E. (not that I expect it for a few more years yet) And if 5E goes back to the kind of depth I want, then I'm there. If they try again with simple, I greatly doubt it.

But either re-tooling a D20ish game or completely re-booting the build is neither here nor there.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Bryon, I just don't see the future of D&D ever being "an advanced detailed game," at least not unless it is modular with basic and advanced variants. To some degree that is already the case with 4E, with the first three hardcovers being a core basic game, and everything else as optional...but not really complicating the rules further, like the 3.5E options, but bringing greater detail and options.

Are you finding that not to be the case with 4E?

Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "depth" and "advanced detail"?
 

Aus_Snow

First Post
If WotC had not come out with 4E, what should they have done? What could they have done without spiraling down and eventually out of business (at least with D&D), as had basically happened with TSR in the late '90s with the glut of 2E?
'Should' is not a word I would choose for this, but 'could'? Sure. . .

Dark Sun Campaign Setting, obviously. Maybe Planescape Campaign Setting too, and even another major setting or two that - as it happens - were *not* redone for 3e.

Also, there were a few other things I seem to remember some people clamouring for, however many it might have been. . .

Like, a Book o' Fey, a Book (or two) of Celestials, perhaps an Unearthed Arcana II (whatever it might actually have been called), 'Complete Sublime' (uh, yeah, maybe another name here too; basically, Bo9S splat. . .), Races of [um, Psionic stuff], Races of [er, other planes? - see Planescape, above], Races of Dark Sun (presumably), Book o' Law and Book o' Chaos (could be just one book, I s'pose), some more (good) adventures. . . and some other stuff; I forget. That's just off the top of my head.

Would it have been at all possible to continue with 3.5E indefinitely, while still making enough profit not to greatly downsize the company?
Of course not. Apart from the fact that 'indefinitely' is just silly, even.

Or could it be that 4E was absolutely necessary for the survival of the Dungeons & Dragons brand of Wizards of the Coast?
Absolutely not. For example, D&D 3.75, so to speak, would have been one alternative, somewhere down the line (@ 2010 or so? or maybe later. . .)
 

kitsune9

Adventurer
Assuming that WotC kept 3.5, they could probably offer some different products such as:

3.5 Extreme Edition--this is 3.5 powered up with new rules, classes, variants. The RPGA will use this version. It's still 3.5 but taken up to an 11 on the power.

New Campaign Setting like Eberron--WotC announces a major setting and the RPGA does a Living version of it.

New software tools similar to DDI. Crothian thought of this, so I agree that this is a good idea.

Of course, all this is pure speculation on my part. I really have no idea what WotC considered as alternatives.

Happy Gaming!
 

Dannager

First Post
Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "depth" and "advanced detail"?
I've always found this claim curious.

In my experience 4th Edition has contained far more of what I would call "depth" than any previous edition. I'm hesitant to say it has "advanced detail," because that sounds like a nice way of saying heinous complexity.

So I'm also interested in hearing what "depth" certain people think is missing from 4th Edition (and which, by extension, was present in previous editions).
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
I remember a while back, prior to the 4e release, Scott Rouse asked folks here on Enworld about what sort of flavor heavy books they might want WotC to come out with. There was a very long list of them, with a Fey book, Fiendish Codex III, a Giant book, and others. None of those ever materialized, so I'm not sure why it was asked about, but the ideas from that thread could serve as a pretty good list of books for WotC to have done had they not gone the 4e route.

Plus, people had been begging for more regional supplement books for FR for several years.

A 3.x Dark Sun. A formal 3.x Planescape book. A new setting entirely, etc.
 

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