A "Shadowdark" For High Fantasy Adventure

[Reynard]

IMPORTANT NOTE: I do not mean using Shadowdark for heroic fantasy adventures. That is pretty easy via tweaking some dials. I have done it successfully multiple times. That is not what this thread is about.

Shadowdark is an interesting case study: it aimed to capture the essence of B/X style D&D, using modern rules and sensibilities -- many from 5E, but also plenty from elsewhere and lots of invention. The result was a light, fast, fun system that embraced the dungeon crawl (yes, you can do other things with SD, but that was among the core design goals). Shadowdark emphasized specific things -- light, procedure, randomness, etc -- to do so, and did so successfully.

So, with that in mind, what would a Shadowdark-like focused design look like if instead of being aimed at old school dungeon fantasy, it was aimed at modern neo-trad high adventure and heroic fantasy? What game or family of games would be the best foundation to start with? What aspects of play would it emphasize and how would it do so in its mechanics? How would one keep it fast, lean, and focused without sacrificing playability, but also not getting over-burdened?

I am sure some folks will just say "5E without subclasses" or something, but I don't think that would world. Even if you make characters simpler, you still have a lot of cruft in the system. You would have to pare 5E down A LOT, making it probably more work than building up from something else.

So without turning this into a discussion about how to turn 5E into a lighter RPG, and focusing instead on what you could do to build a focused and playable high fantasy adventure game, where would you start?

And, if you think this game already exists, what is it?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the assumptions and end goals you go in with should inform the mechanics, rather than just sticking on all of one's favorite systems.

So for a high heroic, big adventure game, I'd want to pursue a number of things:

1. Low lethality, but death is not off the table. Since chipping away slowly at hundreds of hit points doesn't really scream "adventure" to me, I'd go with low health/hit points/etc., but make actually hitting very hard, whether that's due to armor or defensive styles, etc.
2. Combat and game play should be fast, without a lot of looking up rules mid-game. So probably a universal resolution system and different characters would likely interact with it in similar or identical ways, and the customization for character types or individual characters wouldn't require consulting a 300-page book to see how it all works. So maybe a system with tags to turn a ranged attack into a fire spell or a flurry of arrows, etc., rather than having each of those having their own write-ups. (Think of how older superhero games can slow down fast-moving superhero combat by requiring flipping through a catalog of powers.)
3. I've been running a lot of Pirate Borg recently and having the players roll 99% of the dice also speeds things up and keeps people engaged. So maybe we borrow an idea from the Borg games and have players roll both their own attacks and their defenses against enemies, and keep them rolling dice and making combat a constant flow of action. And use the same resolution system for other stunts, etc. If you use a d20 or a 2d12 or whatever for combat, use that system for everything else.
4. And the fastest rolls are the ones you don't make. If a roll doesn't matter, don't make the roll. If a roll is a near-guaranteed success, don't roll. (We're going for high adventure, not low comedy and watching powerful characters trip on their own shoelaces.)

This sounds a lot like Outgunned, honestly, although not identical to it. You could also build this on a Borg chassis, or even a standard WotC d20 chassis (either 3E or 5E) that you then strip back down to the frame.

 

[Retreater]

Perhaps Nimble? Nimble Co. | Slay the TTRPG Slog
It's tagline is to "slay the slog" and focus only on the details important to heroic fantasy adventures.

 

[zakael19]

Nimble for "stick with d20 core and cut," Daggerheart for "take the vibes and do something to build on them."

I think that "subclasses" or "expressionism" might be a requisite part of "heroic high fantasy" play?

 

[Reynard]

Daggerheart for "take the vibes and do something to build on them."

I love DH but it is not in any way a "lean" game

 

[zakael19]

I love DH but it is not in any way a "lean" game

It’s wordy, but you can chop it down with ruthless editing - consider that the one page quick reference is about all you need to play. The 2d12 resolution mechanic is pretty universal, with no skill system and the situational modifiers are all behind “spend a Hope to get a bonus.”

 

[Reynard]

It’s wordy, but you can chop it down with ruthless editing - consider that the one page quick reference is about all you need to play. The 2d12 resolution mechanic is pretty universal, with no skill system and the situational modifiers are all behind “spend a Hope to get a bonus.”

Like most games, the core system is pretty straightforward. But it has a lot of weight in character options and ancillary rules. You would have to strip out so much to make it "lean" that you are basically left with the core mechanic.

 

[SlyFlourish]

IMPORTANT NOTE: I do not mean using Shadowdark for heroic fantasy adventures. That is pretty easy via tweaking some dials. I have done it successfully multiple times. That is not what this thread is about.

Shadowdark is an interesting case study: it aimed to capture the essence of B/X style D&D, using modern rules and sensibilities -- many from 5E, but also plenty from elsewhere and lots of invention. The result was a light, fast, fun system that embraced the dungeon crawl (yes, you can do other things with SD, but that was among the core design goals). Shadowdark emphasized specific things -- light, procedure, randomness, etc -- to do so, and did so successfully.

So, with that in mind, what would a Shadowdark-like focused design look like if instead of being aimed at old school dungeon fantasy, it was aimed at modern neo-trad high adventure and heroic fantasy? What game or family of games would be the best foundation to start with? What aspects of play would it emphasize and how would it do so in its mechanics? How would one keep it fast, lean, and focused without sacrificing playability, but also not getting over-burdened?

I am sure some folks will just say "5E without subclasses" or something, but I don't think that would world. Even if you make characters simpler, you still have a lot of cruft in the system. You would have to pare 5E down A LOT, making it probably more work than building up from something else.

So without turning this into a discussion about how to turn 5E into a lighter RPG, and focusing instead on what you could do to build a focused and playable high fantasy adventure game, where would you start?

And, if you think this game already exists, what is it?

Take a look at Nimble. This very much feels like a high-heroic crunchy-on-the-character-side version of Shadowdark. We're starting it with my Wednesday group and we really like it.

Home

The Nimblenomicon — Nimble tabletop RPG reference.

nimblenomicon.pages.dev

 

[SlyFlourish]

Nimble for "stick with d20 core and cut," Daggerheart for "take the vibes and do something to build on them."

I think that "subclasses" or "expressionism" might be a requisite part of "heroic high fantasy" play?

I found Daggerheart to be surprisingly crunchy. My group, overall, felt like it had a lot of mechanical bloat that didn't offer extra value for the effort. I found the same thing on the GM side. Those monster stat blocks are really crunchy. Even their abstract distances are crunchy (melee, very close, and close are all within 10 feet of each other). I ended up bouncing off of it and I really wanted to like it.

 

[Reynard]

Take a look at Nimble. This very much feels like a high-heroic crunchy-on-the-character-side version of Shadowdark. We're starting it with my Wednesday group and we really like it.

Home

The Nimblenomicon — Nimble tabletop RPG reference.

nimblenomicon.pages.dev

Ooh. I did not realize nimble had an accessibile face. To be perfectly honest (and I fully admit this is unfair assumption) I had kind of written it off as yet another 5E variant made by an influencer more interested in KSer dollars than game design.