A Swimmingly Easy Question

[Water Bob]

Looking at the Swim skill....it doesn't specifically state this, but I assume this is how it works...

A swimming character makes a Swim check each round. Failure means the character goes underwater that round (but, that's OK, because he can hold his breath).

The very next round, the character can attempt a Swim Check again--only staying underwater if the check fails.

This second part is what is not mentioned in the rule but is probably "obvious" and how the rule was meant to be played.

Just checking.

In other words, in order to drown, a character needs to make a number of misses in a row (to where he can no longer hold his breath and starts to drown).

Even with a CON 10, that's a lot of Swim checks that need to be failed in a row!

I've got the rule right, yes?

 

[Vegepygmy]

A swimming character makes a Swim check each round. Failure means the character goes underwater that round (but, that's OK, because he can hold his breath).

Failure by 5 or more means you go underwater.

The very next round, the character can attempt a Swim Check again--only staying underwater if the check fails.

This second part is what is not mentioned in the rule but is probably "obvious" and how the rule was meant to be played.

If you fail a Swim check, you make no progress through the water...so yeah, it seems fairly obvious that you would remain where you are (underwater).

 

[Water Bob]

Failure by 5 or more means you go underwater.

Yes.

If you fail a Swim check, you make no progress through the water...so yeah, it seems fairly obvious that you would remain where you are (underwater).

My point is that it is very hard to drown in this game. Even if your swim skill is low, you're bound to get lucky and roll a successful check to keep you from drowning before you've rolled enough times to drown.

If your CON is 10, then you've got to fail the swim check over 10 times, in a row, in order to drown.

For example, if you roll 9 unsuccessful checks, then get lucky and roll a checkl that suceeds, the character has caught his breath and has another 10+ rounds he can fail and be underwater.

Right?




To explain further: In order to drown, if your CON 10 character has no ranks in Swim but has +2 due to STR, and swining through DC 15 rapids....

The character has to fail his DC 15 swim check (DC 13 adjusted for modifier) 10 times in a row--and then gets to make DC 10 CON checks (where the DC increases +1 each round)...

So, the character has to fail 10 swim checks in a row, then fail enough CON checks so that the character drowns, in order to drown.

That seems like it makes it really hard to drown.

 

[Vegepygmy]

My point is that it is very hard to drown in this game.

Unless you're wearing armor or something, that's probably true.

This seems to me like a feature, not a bug. I doubt that many people want their (presumably heroic) characters to die by drowning, so the rules make it an unlikely event.

 

[kitcik]

A comment and a question:

- In real life, very few people drown - particularly those that intentionally went swimming (as opposed to fell off a boat). Of those that do drown, many are drunk (negative modifier) or hit their head (negative modifier) or went into heavy seas (negative modifier). I think you see where I am going with this. I think that drowning should be pretty rare, except under adverse conditions.

- What if you are INTENTIONALLY swimming underwater? Does failure of a swim check mean anything other than you fail to progrsss (and must continue to hold your breath, obviously)?

 

[Water Bob]

One part of the rules I don't understand the reasoning behind is listed in the Water Dangers section of the 3.5 DMG (page 304). There, it says that in fast moving water, a character takes 1d3 Non-Lethal damage IF HE DOES MAKE HIS SWIM CHECK.

Huh?

If the drowning rules are easy, this rule will kill a character (drown him) unrealistically quick. Think about it. If you get in fast moving water, you'll be unconscious in a matter of minutes, averging 15 points of non-lethal damage per minute.

Somebody help me understand that.







Secondly: I've got this swimming obstacle coming up in my game tomorrow night. This is the first time I've used the 3.5 Swim rules. I want to make sure I've got it "right".

Here's the situation: The PCs are chasing an NPC, and the NPC will (hopefully) make it to a rope (vine) and swing down into a river.

The river is 315 feet wide, and it's a rushing river. Rapids. Picture rocks and tremendous rushing water ending in a large mountain waterfall not too far down stream.

So, by the rules, I've declared the Swim checks to be made against DC 15.





The NPC, Gerald, has a STR 16 (+3), CON 10 (+0), and no ranks in Swim. Speed = 30.

He's barefooted and not wearing anything but a shirt, kilt, and some equipment (weapons and such) that keep way into the light encumbrance zone.

Therefore, Gerald is +3 on his Swim checks.





When Gerald starts to swim across the rapids, he rolls d20 +3 against DC 15 to swim 15 feet.

If he rolls a total of 11-14, then he does not move at all. I guess he treads water.

If he rolls 10 or less, then he goes under.

When Gerald goes under, he can stay under, easily for 10 rounds. On the 11th round, Gerald can still stay under, holding his breath, if he makes a DC 10 CON check. This CON check increases by 1 point until each round until the check is failed, at which point Gerald will be drowning and will be dead in three rounds (considered at 0 HP on that first round of drowning, -1 HP on the second round, and dead on the third round).

This means that it will be very hard for Gerald to drown even though he's not a great swimmer and he's swimming in water he has no business being in.

Gerald can roll 9 failures on his DC 15 Swim check, then can finally make his 10th check and be fine. (This would indicate that Gerald went under for 54 seconds--9 rounds--then popped up, caught his breath, and swam for 15').

Chances are, Gerald is going to take a long time crossing the river, being under a large part of the time but never taking any damage because he'll pop up eventually and swim his 15 foot segment.

That's how it works, yes?

 

[kitcik]

Read the Cold Water and Flowing Water sections of the rules compendium - that will make things more difficult.

Also, although I cannot find specific rules, fatigue should become a factor. Swimming, particularly in a hard current is very fatiguing. Once fatigued, continuing to swim (and you'd really have no choice) would cause exhaustion.

Now you'd be in deep crap.

Swimming a wide, cold, fast flowing mountain river isn't easy, although I would think you'd be unlikely to drown unless you got swept under when you were fatigued. More likely, you'd get busted against some rocks with injuries.

 

[Water Bob]

One part of the rules I don't understand the reasoning behind is listed in the Water Dangers section of the 3.5 DMG (page 304). There, it says that in fast moving water, a character takes 1d3 Non-Lethal damage IF HE DOES MAKE HIS SWIM CHECK.

Huh?

If the drowning rules are easy, this rule will kill a character (drown him) unrealistically quick. Think about it. If you get in fast moving water, you'll be unconscious in a matter of minutes, averging 15 points of non-lethal damage per minute.

Somebody help me understand that.

Can anybody explain this?



Also...

What about characters having equipment washed away while swimming in the rapids? Shouldn't there be a chance that daggers get washed out of scabbards and so forth?

How do you guys handle that?







Secondly: I've got this swimming obstacle coming up in my game tomorrow night. This is the first time I've used the 3.5 Swim rules. I want to make sure I've got it "right".

Here's the situation: The PCs are chasing an NPC, and the NPC will (hopefully) make it to a rope (vine) and swing down into a river.

The river is 315 feet wide, and it's a rushing river. Rapids. Picture rocks and tremendous rushing water ending in a large mountain waterfall not too far down stream.

So, by the rules, I've declared the Swim checks to be made against DC 15.





The NPC, Gerald, has a STR 16 (+3), CON 10 (+0), and no ranks in Swim. Speed = 30.

He's barefooted and not wearing anything but a shirt, kilt, and some equipment (weapons and such) that keep way into the light encumbrance zone.

Therefore, Gerald is +3 on his Swim checks.





When Gerald starts to swim across the rapids, he rolls d20 +3 against DC 15 to swim 15 feet.

If he rolls a total of 11-14, then he does not move at all. I guess he treads water.

If he rolls 10 or less, then he goes under.

When Gerald goes under, he can stay under, easily for 10 rounds. On the 11th round, Gerald can still stay under, holding his breath, if he makes a DC 10 CON check. This CON check increases by 1 point until each round until the check is failed, at which point Gerald will be drowning and will be dead in three rounds (considered at 0 HP on that first round of drowning, -1 HP on the second round, and dead on the third round).

This means that it will be very hard for Gerald to drown even though he's not a great swimmer and he's swimming in water he has no business being in.

Gerald can roll 9 failures on his DC 15 Swim check, then can finally make his 10th check and be fine. (This would indicate that Gerald went under for 54 seconds--9 rounds--then popped up, caught his breath, and swam for 15').

Chances are, Gerald is going to take a long time crossing the river, being under a large part of the time but never taking any damage because he'll pop up eventually and swim his 15 foot segment.

That's how it works, yes?[/QUOTE]

 

[Arrowhawk]

Hey Bob, how did the swim encounter go with the party?

 

[Michael Silverbane]

One part of the rules I don't understand the reasoning behind is listed in the Water Dangers section of the 3.5 DMG (page 304). There, it says that in fast moving water, a character takes 1d3 Non-Lethal damage IF HE DOES MAKE HIS SWIM CHECK.

Huh?

If the drowning rules are easy, this rule will kill a character (drown him) unrealistically quick. Think about it. If you get in fast moving water, you'll be unconscious in a matter of minutes, averging 15 points of non-lethal damage per minute.

Somebody help me understand that.

I suspect that it is mis-worded, but that the fast moving water is supposed to deal that damage regardless of whether you make a successful swim check. Fast moving water will beat the crap out of you.