D&D General A video called "Don't Survey Your Players"

[MichaelSomething]

D&D 5E has been built on surveys. So I thought it would be good food for thought to post this anti-survey video. Chris Wilson, a lead developer for Path of Exile, put up this video explaining why surveying can go wrong.

The TLDR if you don't feel like watching is...
It make you look like you have no vision.
It can create expectations.
Surveys may not actually be helpful.
Bad surveys can push you into bad decisions.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

The surveys should be to allow any failure in the system could be used by munchkins in the future, for example a combo of a class feature with certain feat.

The surveys of PC species should be useful to test the reaction and to know if these ideas could be wellcome by the players.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's kind of an odd idea anyway. How many players do you have? Six? You can't survey six people, it's nothing like enough to get meaningful results. You can talk to them and find out the kind of stuff they like. But that's a conversation, not a survey.

This in particular is a weird point: "It make you look like you have no vision". It's a game with a bunch of friends, not a job interview. You don't need to fake your skills.


I think someone should make a YouTube video entitled "Don't make YouTube videos on inane topics, it make you look desperate for clicks".

 

[Questianor]

It's kind of an odd idea anyway. How many players do you have? Six? You can't survey six people, it's nothing like enough to get meaningful results. You can talk to them and find out the kind of stuff they like. But that's a conversation, not a survey.

This in particular is a weird point: "It make you look like you have no vision". It's a game with a bunch of friends, not a job interview. You don't need to fake your skills.


I think someone should make a YouTube video entitled "Don't make YouTube videos on inane topics, it make you look desperate for clicks".

I'm pretty sure the video is about game devs surveying their player base (presumably usually much larger than 6 people), not DMs surveying their table

 

[GMMichael]

Wait, is Path of Exile looking for feedback? I'm not one of their players, so maybe they'll listen. I just remember installing that game, and being able to, with one click, find the shortest route and take all the necessary steps to get from point A to point B. Yet when it came to fighting something, one click got me one weapon swing and then a dumb look on my character's (and my) face.

 

[Questianor]

Wait, is Path of Exile looking for feedback? I'm not one of their players, so maybe they'll listen. I just remember installing that game, and being able to, with one click, find the shortest route and take all the necessary steps to get from point A to point B. Yet when it came to fighting something, one click got me one weapon swing and then a dumb look on my character's (and my) face.

What were you expecting? It's an ARPG, not an RTS. Your character isn't a unit you command to automatically fight enemies, you control it and need to actively make use of your equipped skills, pop flasks at the right moments, etc. It'd be a boring game otherwise!

 

[GreyLord]

[sarcasm]

I look out upon the table, surveying the field before me.

What will my survey reveal? Will they be good players? Will they be bad?

I see Brad, he has freckles, red hair, green eyes, and looks to be around 25. Youngster.

I see Wilson. He has mousy brown hair with grey flecks through it. A slightly larger build at 230 pounds and 5 foot 10, with brown eyes and a cheerful demeanor.

I see Wanda, with blue eyes and white hair. She appears to be in her 50s or 60s.

Finally, there is Leslie, who has brown hair and amber eyes. She seems to be middle aged in her late 30s and early 40.

They seem excited and happy to be here.

Glad I surveyed the table. Next up is to actually talk to them.

[/sarcasm]

 

[tetrasodium]

D&D 5E has been built on surveys. So I thought it would be good food for thought to post this anti-survey video. Chris Wilson, a lead developer for Path of Exile, put up this video explaining why surveying can go wrong.

The TLDR if you don't feel like watching is...
It make you look like you have no vision.
It can create expectations.
Surveys may not actually be helpful.
Bad surveys can push you into bad decisions.

Sid Meyer(the civ/sim city series of games guy) had a thing years ago (ted talk? Gdc presentation?) that covered a pretty similar thing but focused on how different types of players provide useless and counterproductive feedback that will often damage the game experience for other groups. It was fairly long though.

If nothing else, it would be nice if more companies insisting on polling learned the polling lessons of 1936 Literary Digest presidential poll§ done during the great depression.

Edit:
§the lessons were about sampling bias and self selected polls. There are entire books written about it. Almost 90 years later it's not political in any way.

 

[Remathilis]

The TLDR if you don't feel like watching is...
It make you look like you have no vision.
It can create expectations.
Surveys may not actually be helpful.
Bad surveys can push you into bad decisions.

Honestly, I can see some of his point. The One D&D UA process was majorly botched. They took a lot of good stuff and tossed it out because a vocal minority of players balked at the changes and then when WotC scurried back on them, those players didn't see a point in buying the new PHB anyway. So we lost unified subclass progression, spell lists, templated wild shape, half-caster warlocks and a bunch of other innovations to a bunch of whiners who ended up playing Shadowdark anyway.

If my interactions with fandom (any fandom) is to be believed, the last people you should be soliciting feedback from are "fans".

 

[sevenbastard]

I think the crux is what people think will make them happy and what they actually need to make them happy are very diffrent things.