D&D General A video called "Don't Survey Your Players"

[Dessert Nomad]

Someone without a horse in the current race can still have valid opinions and offer input, I would hope, in order to explain why they're not playing the current (or proposed) version and what it would take to change that.

Otherwise, all you have is a survey of what colour to paint the walls after the room's already built, when the real survey and discussion should be on what size-shape-function of room to build in the first place.

I don't think the input from people who have never actually played the game is valid or useful input for improving the game. If they have no actual experience with playing the game, then there's no reason to think that their suggestions for improvement are even relevant, much less that they're a good idea that will make the game better for people who actually play and enjoy it. I don't think "Have played the game in actual multiplayer format at least a handful of times in the decade since the game came out" is some unreasonably hard bar to set for considering input useful or valid.

It's more like surveying people who live in Poland about what color to paint the walls of your house in Virginia, why would you care about the input of people who aren't ever going to be in your house? Or an all-animal-products restaurant surveying vegans about how to format the menu and what drinks to carry, since the vegans are not going to eat there anyway.

 

[tetrasodium]

.

It's more like surveying people who live in Poland about what color to paint the walls of your house in Virginia, why would you care about the input of people who aren't ever going to be in your house? Or an all-animal-products restaurant surveying vegans about how to format the menu and what drinks to carry, since the vegans are not going to eat there anyway.

Doesn't that describe a huge chunk of reddit?

 

[Lanefan]

But the value of such input needs to be weighted accordingly, or else you end up asking someone who hates seafood what kind of sushi you should put on the menu. Sure it may give you some insight for alternatives to fish-based sushi, but you don't want a menu that places hamburger sushi over California rolls...

That's just my point: you're asking "what kind of sushi" when the real question is what kind of food to serve in the first place, before you even build the restaurant.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't think the input from people who have never actually played the game is valid or useful input for improving the game. If they have no actual experience with playing the game, then there's no reason to think that their suggestions for improvement are even relevant, much less that they're a good idea that will make the game better for people who actually play and enjoy it. I don't think "Have played the game in actual multiplayer format at least a handful of times in the decade since the game came out" is some unreasonably hard bar to set for considering input useful or valid.

So when they ask "What should we include in this new edition of D&D?" only those who play 5e (or, in 2012, 4e) should be allowed to answer and be heard?

Bollocks.

That's just a surveyor's way of dodging responses they don't want to get, from people who play and enjoy other editions and-or systems. That, and not providing response choices that go against what they have already decided.

And if you've already decided something, why waste everyone's time with a bogus survey?

 

[Mistwell]

The TLDR if you don't feel like watching is...
It make you look like you have no vision.
It can create expectations.
Surveys may not actually be helpful.
Bad surveys can push you into bad decisions.

I agree with the last point. Bad surveys can push you into bad decisions.

But I disagree with the rest. It's OK if it looks like you have no vision because it's not about you and it shouldn't matter if others think you do or do not have vision because that's really not the goal here. And it's OK to create expectations. It's also OK if the survey doesn't help, because it might help.

 

[Remathilis]

That's just my point: you're asking "what kind of sushi" when the real question is what kind of food to serve in the first place, before you even build the restaurant.

If your at sushi chef, your not going to poll the community and then open a taco joint. You have to take into consideration what you know and what you want to do.

 

[Remathilis]

So when they ask "What should we include in this new edition of D&D?" only those who play 5e (or, in 2012, 4e) should be allowed to answer and be heard?

No, but like I said, if I was WotC and got a bunch of survey results in 2012/2023 that said "bring back Thac0" I would not weigh them with the same weight as someone saying "fix short rests".

 

[Dessert Nomad]

So when they ask "What should we include in this new edition of D&D?" only those who play 5e (or, in 2012, 4e) should be allowed to answer and be heard?

Bollocks.

That's just a surveyor's way of dodging responses they don't want to get, from people who play and enjoy other editions and-or systems. That, and not providing response choices that go against what they have already decided.

And if you've already decided something, why waste everyone's time with a bogus survey?

They absolutely shouldn't waste time asking and tallying responses to 'what specific tweaks should we make in this game' to people who have never even played the game. Someone who hasn't touched the current version of the game will not have a remotely useful answer to questions like 'should we handle wild shape by using creatures from the monster manual or templates' or 'how should we change beastmaster ranger to make it better', to use two examples of things that are often mentioned in regards to surveys.

The exact line on 'plays' is fuzzy - someone who played 5e half a dozen years ago might well know enough to give useful and meaningful input, but 'has literally never played an actual game of the version being talked about' is absolutely outside of the line of people I'd consider to have useful feedback.

As someone who currently plays and enjoys other editions and systems, it would be rather odd for me to offer an opinion on what they should care about if part of that was 'they shouldn't care about my opinion', it's fairly self-contradictory. That's why I never said anything remotely like 'they shouldn't take responses from people who play and enjoy other editions and-or systems', and I'd appreciate it if you'd avoid attributing positions to me that are definitely not ones I've taken.

I have no idea how you could be on a gaming forum and think that surveying people about 'should we make this change' will get only agreement with the proposed change, limiting a survey to only people who play a game does not mean that everyone will agree with it. Even things like 'is it OK for a DM to limit what game races are allowed in their game' generated a huge back and forth a while back, and there is current threads with ongoing discussion about 'is shocking grasp generally underrated' with multiple differig opinions even though it's an incredibly minor point.

Calling it 'dodging' to limit a survey about game mechanics changes to people who have experience with said game mechanics is silly, as is calling a survey that limits responses to people who have relevant experience with the thing being surveyed 'bogus'.

 

[SableWyvern]

So when they ask "What should we include in this new edition of D&D?" only those who play 5e (or, in 2012, 4e) should be allowed to answer and be heard?

Bollocks.

I mean, at some point you need to recognise those who are never going to be part of your market, and discount their opinions.

There are things WotC could do that would result in me being interested in 6e, but those things would likely drive away much of their current audience. This being the case, my input would have little value, unless there are enough of me to eclipse that current audience.

An attempt to include some stuff I might like, without burning everything to the ground and starting again, is not going to make me a customer -- and if those things aren't appreciated by those who are customers, it's just a losing proposition all round.

 

[MichaelSomething]

There are things WotC could do that would result in me being interested in 6e, but those things would likely drive away much of their current audience. This being the case, my input would have little value, unless there are enough of me to eclipse that current audience.

Are you framing the "doing things you like" approach in a positive or negative light???