D&D General A video called "Don't Survey Your Players"

[Remathilis]

Except we're not talking about simple tweaks to existing mechanics. We're talking about - at least in 2012 - a rewrite and reconstruction of the entire game from the ground up; and in 2023 a potentially direction and philosophy-changing overhaul. Both of these are relevant to people currently on the outside, as the resulting changes might bring them back into the fold

But at no point was WotC going to explicitly bring back downwards running AC just because a vocal minority of grognards demanded it. They would need overwhelming negative response to upwards AC from not just the "reprint 1e" crowd but people who started in 3e, 4e, and later. The same would be true for for both of school mechanics (xp for gp, race/class restrictions) and new ones (ADEU, prestige classes, etc).

 

[Dessert Nomad]

I can't see any other way to parse what you're posting here.

I don't see how it's at all difficult to understand. I have said I don't WOTC to survey (or take into account survey answers) from people who are not players of the game for how they should make changes to the game. People, myself as an example, can play and enjoy other games and other versions of D&D while also playing the current version of D&D. People in the category of 'haven't played current D&D' are the ones who's feedback I don't want influencing the game, including people who only play other editions of D&D or only play other games, or don't play any tabletop roleplaying at all. That is simply not the same group as 'people who have played D&D and also play other games'.

I'm not sure if making a Venn diagram would help, but that's more work than I want to put into this post.

That's a trivially minor tweak, as you say; and as a non-player of 5e I really couldn't give a rat's behind about it. That said, if the result made a difference to whether 5e would be more or less attractive to me I should still be able to throw my vote in and have it count.

Neither of those were trivially minor to people who actually played with those rules, and the fact that you "couldn't give a rat's behind about it" is exactly why I don't want WOTC paying attention to your opinion in surveys like that. As someone who actually plays the game and is interested in playing it, I want them to make the game better for people playing the game, like me. I don't want them to care about making the game slightly more attractive to someone who doesn't actually play the game. From a business perspective, people who actually spend money on the game and play the game (which encourages other people to play and spend money) are the ones to pursue, making the game marginally more attractive to someone who's still not going to buy it is counterproductive. And you didn't say 'this would get me to buy the game', just that it would be more or less attractive to you.

 

[bsss]

Lost in this conversation, I feel, is the use of surveys to learn about the audience (assuming a good sample) rather than naively deciding things for you. I might ask about a topic --- let's say, if D&D should have classes --- not because I wonder that, but because I want to know how that opinion correlates to player experience levels or age groups or whatever. And then maybe I am surprised to learn that class-removers are predominantly DMs, or play in person more than average, and try to explore that.

Surveys aren't always about The Price is Right-style looking back at the audience to figure out what to do. Probably, they should only rarely be that, actually, but I wouldn't discourage surveys overall. I think maybe WotC set themselves up to fail, based on how people see how the process went.

 

[tetrasodium]

Lost in this conversation, I feel, is the use of surveys to learn about the audience (assuming a good sample) rather than naively deciding things for you. I might ask about a topic --- let's say, if D&D should have classes --- not because I wonder that, but because I want to know how that opinion correlates to player experience levels or age groups or whatever. And then maybe I am surprised to learn that class-removers are predominantly DMs, or play in person more than average, and try to explore that.

Surveys aren't always about The Price is Right-style looking back at the audience to figure out what to do. Probably, they should only rarely be that, actually, but I wouldn't discourage surveys overall. I think maybe WotC set themselves up to fail, based on how people see how the process went.

With the 70% threshold the surveys were quite literally a price of right style thing. Worse than that was the fact that they didn't even ask questions to differentiate a 31% veto caused by sampling bias of A: people who played a thing B: people who shared a table with the thing C: people who GM'd for the thing D: people who do/don't regularly GM and/or E: people who never GM. Those are all groups who are certain to take a very different outlook on a question like "was x fun," and a lukewarm meh or even hard no will say something very different

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Sorry, I thought the surveys were about the content from the Unearthed Arcane articles.

OK, now I am remembering the how surveys of Fortnite caused speculation about possible future collabs. If Hasbro wants to know the level of acceptance or popularity of different IPs, these mentioned in a future survey could cause a lot of speculations, but I doubt Hasbro wanted this.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Looks like someone is still bitter about 5.5. Better no voices be heard than the wrong voices be heard. WTF.
I love that 'people will have expectations of you' is a con. That and 'you might do it wrong' -- Might as well not design games at all then.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I'm absolutely convinced the best games will always be true passion projects, where the designer is free to to work to their vision. Some feedback and support may be of use, but a game designed by committee, or to meet market needs, will never be one of the best.

Note: This doesn't mean any given passion project will be any good, nor does it mean a committee (or survey-conscious designer) can't make a reasonably decent game.

Like the Maid RPG; the RPG where you're a maid!
Or Dungeon Crawl Classics! Get those D17/D30s out!

 

[payn]

There is some strong "I want to use the surveys as D&D festivus" energy in here.

 

[Maxperson]

There is no perfect way to design a game. A developer can design a game they like, that their local gaming group likes or they can attempt to reach out to others with surveys. I think all methods are flawed and not doing surveys or getting broader feedback was part of what led to 4e (along with rushed development) which was not exactly a runaway success.

I know this forum is all about WOTC bashing, but they're just doing the best they can to create a game that will work for the broadest audience possible and the best - even if far from perfect - option for that is surveys, along with more in-depth testing with multiple groups. Their goals for the game are simply different than that of a lot of smaller companies. That, and some of "great ideas that were tossed" were ideas I personally disliked. Who's right? Who knows. But you can't please everyone. If you really liked those options, you can always homebrew it back in.

Surveys to see what people like are fun. Design by committee is not. You could survey 10 different groups of things and put the highest rated thing from each group into the game, but those things will often be very disjointed when placed together into a single game. The result, even though it was created from all top responses, won't be liked by most since they don't go well together.

You still need designers who know what they are doing to create the game according to THEIR vision. The surveys can help them see how best to fulfill that vision, but it's foolish to just always pick the top response and go with it.

 

[AlViking]

Surveys to see what people like are fun. Design by committee is not. You could survey 10 different groups of things and put the highest rated thing from each group into the game, but those things will often be very disjointed when placed together into a single game. The result, even though it was created from all top responses, won't be liked by most since they don't go well together.

You still need designers who know what they are doing to create the game according to THEIR vision. The surveys can help them see how best to fulfill that vision, but it's foolish to just always pick the top response and go with it.

Of course you still need designers, as well as playtests and a bunch of other things. But without surveys it's easy to get tunnel vision. I know some people think a more "purist" game is somehow superior and more power to them but I disagree - D&D is not a bespoke niche game, it's designed for the masses.