Action Points and games that use them.

[Koloth]

Does Pathfinder 2e allow you to spend Action Points to take actions out of initiative order (i.e. "not on your turn" in game)?

Still learning the system but IIRC, you can spend 2 AP to 'Ready an Action' to trigger later in the initiative order, but your delayed action can only be 1AP. Pretty sure you can also Delay your turn until later in the order. When you choose to act, your slot in the order gets moved to the point when you acted. Delay doesn't cost any AP. Don't think there is a way to Go Earlier in the order, at least during the first pass.

 

[dbm]

Draw Steel uses a flow of points mechanic to charge different actions in combat.

They are actions, and they cost points, but I don’t think the system uses action points in the sense @jdrakeh is asking about. All characters receive three actions per round (a main action, a maneuver, and a move action).

 

[jdrakeh]

They are actions, and they cost points, but I don’t think the system uses action points in the sense @jdrakeh is asking about. All characters receive three actions per round (a main action, a maneuver, and a move action).

Yeah, that isn't what I'm after. The thing I was proofreading (and that inspired this thread) works like this:

Characters have X Action Points (usually 2, but some classes may have more) that they may spend to take any action during their combat turn (e.g. spend an AP to move up to X feet, spend an AP to attack, spend an AP to cast a spell, etc). You may also spend an AP out of turn to defend against an attack (e.g. parry, dodge, etc). A character's Action Points refresh at the top of every character's combat turn.

 

[Tigris]

Yeah, that isn't what I'm after. The thing I was proofreading (and that inspired this thread) works like this:

Characters have X Action Points (usually 2, but some classes may have more) that they may spend to take any action during their combat turn (e.g. spend an AP to move up to X feet, spend an AP to attack, spend an AP to cast a spell, etc). You may also spend an AP out of turn to defend against an attack (e.g. parry, dodge, etc). A character's Action Points refresh at the top of the character's every combat turn.

Not more games came to my mind but I thought I could maybe describe some submechanics I did not described in detail before:

• There exists 1 (trespasser and I believe Wyrdwood wand: Wyrdwood Wand by Candy Hammer Games for The 4F Tactical Combat Jam) or more (PF2 I think) keywords, which can only be used once per turn. So you can do any action you want, but only 1 with a specific unique keyword. Like you can only do 1 "strike" per turn. But you could do several other actions not being a strike.
• You can defend with an evasion roll against an attack by spending an action. Can't do that if you had your turn before the enemy since you need to spend action in your turn, but you can switch turns with others including monsters hwn its your turn (Dragonbane)
• You have X actions in your turn but must decide how you want to spend them between offence and defense. (cant remember game was on reddit in some gamedesign subreddit). I think in 1 version up to 1 or 2 unused defensive actions carry over to next turn.
• You have 3 actions per turn, and actions unspent carry over to next turn, but strong attacks need up to 5 actions (saw this also on reddit). So you have to decide if you want to act now or act stronger later.
• In Emberwind you have a quite limited number of different attacks you can have at a time. You have 4 points, most actions cost 2, you have maybe 1 action costing 1 (which is a bit weaker). Movement also costs 1. So having to use movement does not feel as punishing as in PF2, because using 1 movement is almost free if you have 1 good single action attack. (And many actions can only be used once per encounter or once per turn so cant spam too much).
• Inspired by Beacon (which uses not action points directly, but has this mechanic which could be well ported): You can decide to act later in a round to get 1 more action, but cant repeat actions.

And some ideas for action points inspired by other types of games, but which could also work in an RPG:

• Actions are in the form of dice. You get 5 dice (1d6) each turn. Each action uses a dice (movent as well), which you normally need to roll for action (pass DC, or to move etc.). You can combine 2+ dice to increase chance that an action succeeds (you add dice together + your stat). You can "store" up to 1 dice. When you have 1 dice stored then you can use that dice to defend. If the defence succeeds you keep the dice, if you take some damage, you lose it. You can also give a dice to someone else (for them to store) in your turn. (Helping them defend). This is from https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/233312/stuffed-fables a board game inspired by dungeon crawlers (made for kids) and works really well overall.
• Inspired by https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/292667/league-of-infamy (dungeon cralwer boardgame). After each action done, you can do 1 step (1 square/5 fee movement) for free. This single rule made this game sooo much more tactical. You can still use actions for moving more (5 spaces normally), but having this free extra movement was what made combat fun. The game has facing a direction, opportunity attacks (but only against enemiees in your front) and strict line of sight and range rules. So these small extra steps allowed to attack from behind, get out of range or line of sight, or get into sight etc.
• Inspired by arcadia quest: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/179803/arcadia-quest-inferno You have X actions a turn, but each type of attack can only be used once (or twice). If you have more attacks, you can have less passive effects. You can spend 1 turn to rest to refresh all your attacks. This worked really well with action points in my oppinion, because you have some automatic anti spaming mechanic, and the when do you take a short breather in combat is a tactical decision.
• You can overspend action points to a certain degree, but the next enemy gets as many more action points as you overspent. (Inspired by Digimon TGC there its with mana)
• You have 5+ action points. Using an attack costs normally 2, defending (partially) against an attack costs 1. (inspired by Blood and flesh TCG). This makes it feel a bit more worth to use actions for defense.
• actions have a certain range. And a certain amount of movement, is included in using an action but can only be used to move in range (and only into minimum range not more). More movement costs point. This speeds up combat quite a bit, and allows to not feel bad to "need to move" unlike in some other action based games. (Inspired by Trails in the Sky CRPG)
• If you like cards in RPGs: Possible actions you can do are cards. Each action costs 1+ action points which are generated by spending other cards as ressources. (Flesh in Blood TCG and others). This also works without random drawing, just having a small pool of possible actions.

I hope this helps / gives some inspiration

 

[jdrakeh]

I hope this helps / gives some inspiration

Heck, yeah!

 

[Bagpuss]

Yeah, that isn't what I'm after. The thing I was proofreading (and that inspired this thread) works like this:

Characters have X Action Points (usually 2, but some classes may have more) that they may spend to take any action during their combat turn (e.g. spend an AP to move up to X feet, spend an AP to attack, spend an AP to cast a spell, etc). You may also spend an AP out of turn to defend against an attack (e.g. parry, dodge, etc). A character's Action Points refresh at the top of every character's combat turn.

The issue I have with this method of action points (1 AP is one action of any type) is that actions rarely have equal value. Say you have a system with two action points.

You have two characters. The one than moves into melee spending a point then attacks for another point, is clearly disadvantaged against the melee character that stands there and attacks twice when his opponent arrives. Or the archer that doesn't need to move to do two attacks every round. It's why a lot of RPGs limit the number of attacks, or don't tie movement to the same action economy as attacks.

 

[Tigris]

The issue I have with this method of action points (1 AP is one action of any type) is that actions rarely have equal value. Say you have a system with two action points.

You have two characters. The one than moves into melee spending a point then attacks for another point, is clearly disadvantaged against the melee character that stands there and attacks twice when his opponent arrives. Or the archer that doesn't need to move to do two attacks every round. It's why a lot of RPGs limit the number of attacks, or don't tie movement to the same action economy as attacks.

Well I do agree rhat this causes some potential problems, but there are also some solutions/workarounds for it.

Although for me the bigger problem is "no one wants to move since moving does not add damage etc" and nor "eange sre stronger" since the part with ranged attacks can more easily be solved by just numerical balancing.


Some things which can help

• Add some free movement to actions (as in 2 of the suggestions in my last post (Trails in the sky, league of infamy))
• You can still have actions which cost more than 1 action (like PF2)
• You can limit the number of specific actions you can do, like only 1 "strike" type of actions and strikes are a lot stronger than other attacks (Trespasser)
• You can completely abstract movement/ leave it away, like Fabula Ultima.
• You can make attacking more than once feel miserable by adding severe penalties like Pathfinder 2 does
• You can give a "charge" action, ehich costs only 1 action but combines movement towards an enemy together with a melee attack. (Like D&D 4e did)
• You can as a default create levels/environments with a lot of cover / blocking of line of sight making also ranged need to move. Like Beacon (and Lancer I think) where there are default map layouts for missions which normally include cover. Or you could even add a mechanic for thst: Like you could even add a mechanic where melee players and opponents could choose 1-2 spots where cover is added on a map to help them.
• You can make ranges need to more actively run away from melees by having opportunity attacks trigger from ranged attacks. And combine this with faster movement with melees or maps which are not to big or mechanics from above.
• You can add action tax (PF 2) to range classes / attacks or give melees more actions or ranged weapons having movement penalties.

 

[aramis erak]

Rolemaster 2 Companion IV had a… detailed… action point system if you wanted it.

Spoiler: A table!

I don’t recall ever using it.

I did... I preferred the earlier "% action" system in RMC I (1986 printing) page 95:

Note that it costs initiative AND a percentage of allowed action for the round.
If you want a chanbarra feel, just use the initiative costs and ignore the %... and allow spending to 0 Initiaitive... gets wild.

 

[aramis erak]

Not quite what I'm looking for, but thank you for the Hero mention!

A number of games use action phase tables with one action per phase, but various characters having different numbers of actions. Not quite an AP system, but a conceptual step just beside it.

Hero System is the most obvious.
the old GW Judge Dredd was another - you got one action per 10 initiaitive (an attribute), scattered over the 10 phase turn. If A had 2 actions and B had three, due to the table, they'd wind up B→A→B→A→B...

WFRP 1E: Actions was an attribute; you got your first action on your Initiaitive Att's point (modified for weapon/action); if you had 2 actions, the second was on half that initiative; if you had 3 actions, they were on full, 2/3, and 1/3... Only one of them was allowed a move, IIRC...

Some board games with noteworthy
Star Fleet Battles: Noted now for the 32 impulse game; early editions you got to use a shorter chart - Designer's Edition has 10 and 20 impulse charts. Your speed determines which impulses you move in. Using the 10 impulse chart, Speed 3 moves on impulses 4, 7, and 10, while speed 6 moves on impulses 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, and speed 5 on impulses 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. Note that you have firing opportunities on EVERY impulse, but no weapon can fire twice in a turn nor within a quarter of a turn of firing in a prior turn...
Commander's Edition also had 8 and 16 impulse charts... better fits for the "quarter turn rule"... and that QTR affects a bunch in play. Not just weapon fire, but a bunch of other "systems" have QTR limits.

Starfire also uses impulses, but handles speeds differently: you move in impulses 1 to speed... assuming you want to - speed is a fixed number. Unrealistic, but closer to an AP system where you have to decide whether to use one to move, turn, both, or neither each impulse. Firing is a whole separate step from impulse procedure.