D&D General Actual Gish Fighting Styles

[Silam]

As much as i respect that people would like a traditional bladesinger I don’t think the generic gish building blocks all ought to adhere to that framework.

For sure! And I think it’s great that there are Eldritch Knights, Valor Bards and other options (e.g., Warlock) to play gishes! As a matter of fact, my personal opinion is that a multiclassed BS/EK feels more like a real bladesinger than a straight classed BS (which feels like half of the concept, and not quite the real thing). And I’m fine playing a bladesinger concept as a MC build, no issues with having those building blocks and assembling them however feels best.

I also think, however, that 5e’s drive to make everything the same in the name of simplification has caused the loss of some interesting lore along the way. And that seems unfortunate to me… should there be non-elf two-weapon fighting full plate wearing gishes? Absolutely! Should bladesingers retain their unique lore without needing to self-nerf compared to these other options? I think so too. I view no contradictions there.

 

[jmartkdr2]

The simplest answer might be “you learn the cantrips booming blade, green flame blade, and true strike.”

Gives you magical weapon tricks, some damage versatility, and the ability to use int/cha for attacks, although with a tradeoff at low levels.

 

[Silam]

The simplest answer might be “you learn the cantrips booming blade, green flame blade, and true strike.”

Gives you magical weapon tricks, some damage versatility, and the ability to use int/cha for attacks, although with a tradeoff at low levels.

But why would doing that as part of a Fighting Style be a better option than taking Magic Initiate as an origin feat? Just so that the Fighter gets the same alternative option as the Ranger and Paladin?

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BTW, I think the designers' intent for why the Paladin and Ranger get this alternative feature is that in accordance with multi-class rules, getting the Fighting Style feature more than once does not allow stacking multiple FS. The only way to stack two FS is via the Champion 7's Additional Fighting Style feature. So giving an alternative allows any MC build containing Fighter 1, Ranger 2 and/or Paladin 2 to avoid wasting that feature. It's a nice touch, considering that we get no such treatment for Extra Attack, which gets wasted without appeal if you level two or more of the aforementioned classes to 5 in the same build. I guess they thought a 5/5 build was less likely than a 1/X or 2/X build and therefore felt more inclined to throw that bone to help with that case.

 

[Corinnguard]

Another easy method is to build a Battlemaster and just refluff the maneuvers as magical features. We have plenty of spells that knock an enemy prone... just refluff Trip with the magical affectation of one of those spells. Commander's Strike? Make it a modified 'Haste' you "cast" on an ally that speeds them up and lets them attack again. The bonus damage? Magical field that increases the power of the weapon. All kinds of things you can do.

This may not be necessary; Level Up does have a couple of Combat Traditions that have maneuvers that blend magic with martial might. Ex. Cutting Omen

Cutting Omen Maneuvers
Magic, Resourcefulness, Versatility

Prerequisite: Spellcasting, Magic Wielding, or Pact Magic class
feature

Fighting spellcasters often learn both disciplines to give
themselves additional options in combat, so it should not
be surprising that one learned to use untapped magical
energy to enhance their skill at arms and taught others the
same. Cutting Omen practitioners use these techniques to
“stretch” their magic, siphoning small amounts of stored
power to enhance their combat prowess without spending
it outright.

Infused Strike (2 points)
1st degree Cutting Omen action
Requirement: Unused spell slot of 1st level or higher or at least 2 unspent spell points or artifact charges

You infuse your weapon with latent magical energy and strike with it.

Choose a damage type dealt by a cantrip you know or a spell you have prepared. Make a melee attack with a weapon or unarmed strike. If the attack hits, it deals 1d6 additional damage of the chosen damage type.

Combat traditions in Level Up are made up of 15 maneuvers divvied up amongst 5 degrees (the martial equivalent of a spellcasting level). The other two Combat traditions that blend magic and martial might are Arcane Knight and Eldritch Blackguard.

 

[Weiley31]

EnWorld had a Bladesong Fighting Style in their one *Archetype Anthology" kickstarter digital release. It gave you advantage on the CON save for concentration checks to maintain your spell if you made an attack action. You only get the benefit if you classic Bladesinger it by only one handing melee weapons and no shields.

IIRC, the recent Keith Baker 5E Eberron book, Frontiers of Eberron:Quickstone, also has the Wandslinger Fighting Style for 5E spellcasters(As well as Foci weapon masteries).


So far, those are the ONLY two Fighting Styles I've seen for gishes/spellcasters in all of 5E.

 

[Weiley31]

Technically, the Arcane/Gish "Fighting Style" IS the Tasha's Bladesinger Extra Attack feature (YMMV based on how you feel bout that overall).

Which I honestly think is why WoTC has yet to bother, or even wants to, make an actual Fighting Style for spellcasters.

 

[Corinnguard]

Which I honestly think is why WoTC has yet to bother, or even wants to, make an actual Fighting Style for spellcasters.

This could explain why EN Publishing and some of its' 3pp came up with Combat Traditions such as Cutting Omen then in Level Up.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I definitly do not think it needs a damage boost on top. I would instead rather make it weaker by giving not a cantrip of choice but a preselected one like predistigation or so.

No it needs to be open.

Being able to use a different stat for attacking is already quite useful. Being able to choose damage type is also strong especially since this from level 1 helps against enemies which take only half or no physical damage.



The problem for me this (same for true strike) does not really make a character a gish. You are still a basic attacker, just that you use a different stat for basic attacks.

Doing elemental damage and using your casting stat for weapon attacks is basic gish.

The only other way i have seen that is any good (imo) is to have the int attack and damage and each damage type has a secondary effect but you have to choose only 2 rather than having all of them.

To everyone else, thank you for the ideas, but with respect i am not interesting in build ideas. I am rather good at using the existing options to make a gish. I am solely interested in an arcane warrior fighting style as such.

 

[Minigiant]

The problem for me this (same for true strike) does not really make a character a gish. You are still a basic attacker, just that you use a different stat for basic attacks

This.

To me there is 3 aspects of D&D Gishing

1) Making Weapong attacks with your Spellcasting stat
2) Improvement of your Weapon Attacks with Spells using Magic Resources
3) Doing Spell like Effexts using an Attack Roll in place of OR in addition to a Spell DC.

To me, a Gish does at least 2 of the 3.

A fighting style doesnt have enough design space for more than 1 of the 3.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This.

To me there is 3 aspects of D&D Gishing

1) Making Weapong attacks with your Spellcasting stat
2) Improvement of your Weapon Attacks with Spells using Magic Resources
3) Doing Spell like Effexts using an Attack Roll in place of OR in addition to a Spell DC.

To me, a Gish does at least 2 of the 3.

A fighting style doesnt have enough design space for more than 1 of the 3.

Doing 2 is not part of the same layer of the rules. Doing 3 could be done as long as they are cantrip level effects. Like i suggest upthread.

But...why does it matter? Why would a fighting style do the entire job of making you a gish?? Why would that ever be part of the discussion?

The point of a fighting style is to set you up from early on to fight in a given style, not to be the entirety of your build.