D&D General Actual Gish Fighting Styles

[Silam]

To everyone else, thank you for the ideas, but with respect i am not interesting in build ideas. I am rather good at using the existing options to make a gish. I am solely interested in an arcane warrior fighting style as such.

Understood.

So... if the Paladin/Ranger's alternative option of learning 2 cantrips was simply transferred over to the Fighter as well, but made to select from the Wizard list instead, wouldn't that pretty much achieve what you're looking for? It might be slightly stronger than these other two features, because generally speaking the Wizard list is the best, and because the Fighter could get that as soon as 1st level, while the other two classes get that option at 2nd level... but, let's say we hand wave the balance concerns for now (which are fairly minor anyway...) then is it satisfactory? A few options to consider:

• If you choose True Strike, you get the Int to attack/damage.
• If you choose BB or GFB, you get an additional elemental damage type (though it requires some circumstances to trigger, but still...).
• If you choose Bladeward, you get a nice at will defensive buff to make use of your concentration (which you otherwise have no uses for, so not bad).
• Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch are both good gish choices too.

From a spellcasting perspective, is there anything significant missing from this menu of options?

Alternatively, if copying the Paladin/Ranger option feels too samey (and yeah, it does), then we can also look into crafting some entirely new mechanic.

That said, I'm personally not convinced that giving a flat passive bonus like Int to attack/damage is that interesting... it also feels kind of samey, plus it devalues other existing options like having TS or the Bladesinger 3's Bladesong, or the Battle Smith 3's Battle Ready... I don't think it's necessarily over-powered, since Pact of the Blade essentially gives you that also at 1st level, but if the goal is for this new option to feel fresh and new, I would like to see something fresher and newer. That is the angle I was trying to pursue with the Bladesong Fighting Style proposals (i.e., something that would synergize well in existing gish builds, but which doesn't exist yet), though I understand that this is pursuing a very specific flavor, and therefore not generically appealing.

Here are some off-the-cuff ideas, not very polished, but just in the spirit of brainstorming something that feels new:

• Defensive Caster: Learn one cantrip, and whenever you cast a cantrip while wielding a melee weapon, you gain a bonus to AC of half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) until the start of your next turn. (Maybe too powerful?)
  • EDIT: This might invite spellcasters to do a 1 level dip in Fighter, pick that and leave, while not really being a gish at all... here's an alternative wording that would constrain the build to being more gishy:
    • Learn one cantrip, and whenever you cast a cantrip and attack with a melee weapon in the same round, you gain a bonus to AC of half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) until the start of your next turn.
    • Why is it different? Concretely, for a low-level level character, it means you must use one of the bladetrips to get the bonus (TS, BB, GFB...) so you can't just sling Fire Bolts from the back while wielding a quarterstaff you never planned to use as a weapon, just for the sake of getting the AC bonus. At a higher level, an Eldritch Knight 7+ could use this to cast any of their cantrips (not just bladetrips) while also doing a weapon attack, since their Extra Attack grants them 2 attacks, and War Magic lets them swap one of those. So over time, the flexibility of the feature improves a bit, but it remains targeted at melee gish characters.
• Burning Rout: Learn one cantrip, and gain the War Caster feat's ability to cast as part of an opportunity attack, with the same restrictions as spelled out in that feat (but none of the other benefits).
• Eldritch Reflexes: Learn one 1st level Wizard spell which has a Reaction casting time. You can cast this spell once per short rest. (This might be too powerful...? at any rate, I would certainly take it, if such option was available ...)
• Vengeful Rebuke: Learn one cantrip that requires concentration, and whenever you lose your concentration on any cantrip or spell due to an attack or effect originating from a creature within the reach of your melee weapon, you can use your Reaction to make an opportunity attack against them.

Anything interesting in there?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Understood.

So... if the Paladin/Ranger's alternative option of learning 2 cantrips was simply transferred over to the Fighter as well, but made to select from the Wizard list instead, wouldn't that pretty much achieve what you're looking for? It might be slightly stronger than these other two features, because generally speaking the Wizard list is the best, and because the Fighter could get that as soon as 1st level, while the other two classes get that option at 2nd level... but, let's say we hand wave the balance concerns for now (which are fairly minor anyway...) then is it satisfactory? A few options to consider:

• If you choose True Strike, you get the Int to attack/damage.
• If you choose BB or GFB, you get an additional elemental damage type (though it requires some circumstances to trigger, but still...).
• If you choose Bladeward, you get a nice at will defensive buff to make use of your concentration (which you otherwise have no uses for, so not bad).
• Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch are both good gish choices too.

From a spellcasting perspective, is there anything significant missing from this menu of options?

Alternatively, if copying the Paladin/Ranger option feels too samey (and yeah, it does), then we can also look into crafting some entirely new mechanic.

That said, I'm personally not convinced that giving a flat passive bonus like Int to attack/damage is that interesting... it also feels kind of samey, plus it devalues other existing options like having TS or the Bladesinger 3's Bladesong, or the Battle Smith 3's Battle Ready... I don't think it's necessarily over-powered, since Pact of the Blade essentially gives you that also at 1st level, but if the goal is for this new option to feel fresh and new, I would like to see something fresher and newer. That is the angle I was trying to pursue with the Bladesong Fighting Style proposals (i.e., something that would synergize well in existing gish builds, but which doesn't exist yet), though I understand that this is pursuing a very specific flavor, and therefore not generically appealing.

Here are some off-the-cuff ideas, not very polished, but just in the spirit of brainstorming something that feels new:

• Defensive Caster: Learn one cantrip, and whenever you cast a cantrip while wielding a melee weapon, you gain a bonus to AC of half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) until the start of your next turn. (Maybe too powerful?)
  • EDIT: This might invite spellcasters to do a 1 level dip in Fighter, pick that and leave, while not really being a gish at all... here's an alternative wording that would constrain the build to being more gishy:
    • Learn one cantrip, and whenever you cast a cantrip and attack with a melee weapon in the same round, you gain a bonus to AC of half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) until the start of your next turn.
    • Why is it different? Concretely, for a low-level level character, it means you must use one of the bladetrips to get the bonus (TS, BB, GFB...) so you can't just sling Fire Bolts from the back while wielding a quarterstaff you never planned to use as a weapon, just for the sake of getting the AC bonus. At a higher level, an Eldritch Knight 7+ could use this to cast any of their cantrips (not just bladetrips) while also doing a weapon attack, since their Extra Attack grants them 2 attacks, and War Magic lets them swap one of those. So over time, the flexibility of the feature improves a bit, but it remains targeted at melee gish characters.
• Burning Rout: Learn one cantrip, and gain the War Caster feat's ability to cast as part of an opportunity attack, with the same restrictions as spelled out in that feat (but none of the other benefits).
• Eldritch Reflexes: Learn one 1st level Wizard spell which has a Reaction casting time. You can cast this spell once per short rest. (This might be too powerful...? at any rate, I would certainly take it, if such option was available ...)
• Vengeful Rebuke: Learn one cantrip that requires concentration, and whenever you lose your concentration on any cantrip or spell due to an attack or effect originating from a creature within the reach of your melee weapon, you can use your Reaction to make an opportunity attack against them.

Anything interesting in there?

Very interesting.

Defensive Caster could require that one hand be free or holding a spellbook or arcane focus, limiting the weapon options and ensuring no shield?

Burning Rout is a solid idea, and if you make it a "choose a cantrip and gain these benefits with that cantrip" option then it could also make it so that the cantrip uses a weapon attack roll rsther than a spell attack or saving throw?

Vengeful Rebuke is really fun.

Maybe also one that lets you cast cantrips that target one enemy and deal damage as an attack with the attack action, replacing the normal spell attack or saving throw?

 

[Minigiant]

The thread isnt about building a class. It is exclusively and entirely about building a fighting style that gives the fighter level one magical attacks and/or synergizes with gish builds by letting you use casting stat for weapon attacks.

My point is its too strong of and option for a fighting style anf likely unhealthy for the game in flavor due to meta.

 

[Silam]

Very interesting.

Defensive Caster could require that one hand be free or holding a spellbook or arcane focus, limiting the weapon options and ensuring no shield?

I mean, you know I’m a bladesinger fan so you’re preaching to the choir … I don’t think it necessarily needs that restriction for balance, but it’s fine to have it thematically, for sure… if giving the AC boost is a balance concern, then stipulating that the fighting style requires forfeiting a shield and/or heavy armor might be a fine counterbalance.

Burning Rout is a solid idea, and if you make it a "choose a cantrip and gain these benefits with that cantrip" option then it could also make it so that the cantrip uses a weapon attack roll rsther than a spell attack or saving throw?

I’m not sure I understand this idea. Is it saying, for example, that you could cast Toll the Dead as a rider on your weapon attack instead of requiring a save? If that is the idea, then I think it would be very fitting in some cases (e.g., for Shocking Grasp, how come there is no way in the game for me to stab someone with a metallic weapon and let the electrical current get transmitted from my hand on the hilt to the opponent?) while in other cases it might feel a little weird (e.g., the aforementioned Toll the Dead example).

Regarding the specificity, I would prefer that the fighting style work with any cantrip or spell, rather than just the bonus one it gives, but it’s not that big a deal. We need not forget that fighting styles can be swapped over time, so you could build a gish that starts off with Burning Rout, then eventually outgrows the need for it because they pick the War Caster feat, and therefore switches to a different fighting style at that point, e.g., Defensive Caster.

Vengeful Rebuke is really fun.

I thought so… though a bit masochistic … if the enemies catch on that this is what’s happening, it might end up acting as an anti-aggro effect, and reduce effectiveness as a tank, since there is potentially a punishing effect to attacking that character … but it’s probably a minor thing anyway.

Maybe also one that lets you cast cantrips that target one enemy and deal damage as an attack with the attack action, replacing the normal spell attack or saving throw?

That sounds similar to the other effect under the Burning Rout discussion, but again, not sure I’m fully understanding the proposed mechanic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My point is its too strong of and option for a fighting style anf likely unhealthy for the game in flavor due to meta.

What is? Literally any fighting style that lends itself to being a gish? That is absurd.

Having an arcane warrior fighting style is bad for the game's flavor?? Due to what meta?? How??

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

What is? Literally any fighting style that lends itself to being a gish? That is absurd.

Having an arcane warrior fighting style is bad for the game's flavor?? Due to what meta?? How??

No, but granting the ability to make attacks using a spellcasting ability is an ability powerful enough that missing an entire level (or more) of your class is often worthwhile to get it.
Giving it out from a mere (fraction of) a fighting style is too strong an option.

Allowing a character to operate effectively as a martial character without needing any investment in the ability scores usually required to do so does warp the meta.
In a bad way.

Also - I thought "Gish" styles were meant to be mixing and combining the physical with the esoteric. Why is the first step in gish homebrew almost invariably the ability to discard the physical aspect in favour of only investing in the spellcasting side of things?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Potential Gish fighting styles:

When making a weapon attack as part of the attack action, you may add an amount of additional damage equal to your Int, Wis, or Cha modifier, provided that ability is not already being added to the damage for another reason. This additional damage can be Fire, Cold, Lightning, or Acid.
You can reduce the range of any spell you cast with a range greater than Touch to Touch. While wielding a melee weapon, you can use the ability score used to attack with that weapon as your spellcasting ability for any spell with a range of Touch.

Or

When casting a spell using a spell slot while wielding a weapon in one hand, you can deal an additional amount of damage equal to a roll of the weapon's damage die to one target of that spell.

Or maybe

While you are wielding both a one-handed weapon and a non-weapon Spellcasting Focus, or empty hand, only; you gain a +1 bonus to saving throws until the start of your next turn after taking the Attack Action.
While you are wielding both a one-handed weapon and a non-weapon Spellcasting Focus, or empty hand, only; you gain a +1 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn after taking the Magic Action.

 

[Minigiant]

What is? Literally any fighting style that lends itself to being a gish? That is absurd.

Having an arcane warrior fighting style is bad for the game's flavor?? Due to what meta?? How??

Fighting styles are low power.

The strongest fighting style, Archery, is +10% DPR.

TWF is +2 to +3 DPR.

Fighting styles are weak.

A gish Fighting style would be too weak to really give gish flavor.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Also - I thought "Gish" styles were meant to be mixing and combining the physical with the esoteric. Why is the first step in gish homebrew almost invariably the ability to discard the physical aspect in favour of only investing in the spellcasting side of things?

How is making physical weapon attacks with a casting ability score not combining the physical and esoteric. using Int to attack is esoteric, sure, but it is also physical...because you are attack with a weapon.

Potential Gish fighting styles:

When making a weapon attack as part of the attack action, you may add an amount of additional damage equal to your Int, Wis, or Cha modifier, provided that ability is not already being added to the damage for another reason. This additional damage can be Fire, Cold, Lightning, or Acid.
You can reduce the range of any spell you cast with a range greater than Touch to Touch. While wielding a melee weapon, you can use the ability score used to attack with that weapon as your spellcasting ability for any spell with a range of Touch.

That is so much more juice than my suggestion.

Or

When casting a spell using a spell slot while wielding a weapon in one hand, you can deal an additional amount of damage equal to a roll of the weapon's damage die to one target of that spell.

Why is a fighting style interacting exclusively with leveled spells?

Or maybe

While you are wielding both a one-handed weapon and a non-weapon Spellcasting Focus, or empty hand, only; you gain a +1 bonus to saving throws until the start of your next turn after taking the Attack Action.
While you are wielding both a one-handed weapon and a non-weapon Spellcasting Focus, or empty hand, only; you gain a +1 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn after taking the Magic Action.

That is very unweildy. Like 4e Bard tactical powers unweildy. (Note, i love the 4e bard, but it fits 4e and very much does kot fit 5e)

Fighting styles are low power.

The strongest fighting style, Archery, is +10% DPR.

TWF is +2 to +3 DPR.

Fighting styles are weak.

A gish Fighting style would be too weak to really give gish flavor.

That doesnt make sense. Literally learn 1 cantrip and casting a single target cantrip as an attack action attack with an attack roll even if it normally requires a saving throw would give gish flavor.

Taking booming blade but making it a fighting style benefit you can use when you have 1 hand free or are weilding a weapon in one hand and a focus in the other, would give gish flavor.

Hell you could make it require no heavy armor as well if needed to balance it.

It just has to be equivelent to 2 cantrips in power.

 

[Minigiant]

That doesnt make sense. Literally learn 1 cantrip and casting a single target cantrip as an attack action attack with an attack roll even if it normally requires a saving throw would give gish flavor

Using Intelligence rather than Strength or Dexterity for attacks is more powerful than a fighting style design space.

Then you are adding a cantrip.