D&D General Actual Gish Fighting Styles

[Minigiant]

No, it isn't. It is the minimum to make the concept work properly. As it is they can get True Strike, but then still need something else after level 5. It makes int based fighters janky

Its more powerful than current Fighting Styles feats.

It does fix the concept but it's over the power budget.

It let's you dump your points or rolls from Strength or Dexterity to another score.

Thats enough to increase your secondary or tertiary score by +2 to +4. 7 points of point buy or moving your 2nd best roll to Con or Dex.

It lets me go from a Str 17, Dex 14, Int 14, Con 12 fighter to a Str 8, Dex 14, Int 17. Con 14 fighter with 4 more points left.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

How is making physical weapon attacks with a casting ability score not combining the physical and esoteric. using Int to attack is esoteric, sure, but it is also physical...because you are attack with a weapon.

Because its pretty much always "I want to use my Magic Stat to do physical stuff." Rarely "I want to combine both my physical and magic capabilities", and pretty much never "I want to use my physical abilities to do magic stuff."

Its . . . understandable from a sheer power perspective. But its annoying since its always in the same direction - The most powerful and meta-warping one.

That is so much more juice than my suggestion.

I don't think so. - Unless you're heavily investing in a lot of stats its not that much extra damage, and its more limited than the other raw damage fighting styles.

Why is a fighting style interacting exclusively with leveled spells?

Because allowing an entire additional die to cantrip damage at low level would be too powerful.

That is very unweildy. Like 4e Bard tactical powers unweildy. (Note, i love the 4e bard, but it fits 4e and very much does kot fit 5e)

Its mostly "enhance defences when using a non-optimal loadout". The extra wordiness is to try to avoid abuse or excessive synergies.

That doesnt make sense. Literally learn 1 cantrip and casting a single target cantrip as an attack action attack with an attack roll even if it normally requires a saving throw would give gish flavor.

Taking booming blade but making it a fighting style benefit you can use when you have 1 hand free or are weilding a weapon in one hand and a focus in the other, would give gish flavor.

Hell you could make it require no heavy armor as well if needed to balance it.

It just has to be equivelent to 2 cantrips in power.

Those would probably be fine, both flavour and power. They aren't in the ballpark of the previous suggestion.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

At the end of the day, the 5e design is heavily tilted towards SAD-ness. The MADdest classes, such as the Monk, aren’t even that mad, requiring only two stats (Dex, Wis). In 3e, a Monk required those + Strength. Of course, no matter the edition, everyone needs Con so I’m not counting that.

Anyway, what I’m getting at is that we may love or hate SAD-ness, but it is nonetheless a core design principle of the current edition. I personally think SAD-ness makes 5e a bit boring and that MAD-ness would spice things up a bit. But even though I think so, it’s hard to buck that trend just one houserule at a time. If we say Rangers get to swap their FS for Shillelagh + one more cantrip, but Fighters cannot swap theirs for True Strike, I don’t think we’re being very congruent…

We could say we’ll delete TS, and Shillelagh, and Pact of the Blade and the other stat-swapping abilities, and maybe that would be good actually, but then it’s a much bigger scope of change.

Some classes are pretty SAD. But for every full-caster that gets to attack physically with their magic stat, there is a martial that has to use a tertiary stat for their special abilities.

 

[jmartkdr2]

But why would doing that as part of a Fighting Style be a better option than taking Magic Initiate as an origin feat? Just so that the Fighter gets the same alternative option as the Ranger and Paladin?

It’s not really better except that hat it enhances flexibility; now you can take a different feat. If you use Magic Initiate to learn the cantrips, you can take a different Fighting Style. Or you could use my suggestion and take Magic Initiate to learn even more cantrips.

Another idea: the fighting style just lets you use your choice of stat for weapon attacks. That feels balanced at the sniff-test level if a little bland.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Its more powerful than current Fighting Styles feats.

No, it is not.

It does fix the concept but it's over the power budget.

It let's you dump your points or rolls from Strength or Dexterity to another score.

How is a high int better than a high dex? Either way you still need at least a 14 in the secondary in order to not suck, you need Con even more than if you werent a gish, so your three highest ststs will probably be exactky the same numbers, just in different order.

And high dex is superior to high int once you look outside of attacking.

Thats enough to increase your secondary or tertiary score by +2 to +4. 7 points of point buy or moving your 2nd best roll to Con or Dex.

It lets me go from a Str 17, Dex 14, Int 14, Con 12 fighter to a Str 8, Dex 14, Int 17. Con 14 fighter with 4 more points left.

The actual comparison is a dex build, because strength builds are just weak unless they use heavy armor and ignore dex. A dex gish is just going to have a 17 dex and 14 int and focus on buff and utility spells without int-to-hit. It isnt a big difference.

Because its pretty much always "I want to use my Magic Stat to do physical stuff." Rarely "I want to combine both my physical and magic capabilities", and pretty much never "I want to use my physical abilities to do magic stuff."

Those arent actually different things.

Its . . . understandable from a sheer power perspective. But its annoying since its always in the same direction - The most powerful and meta-warping one.

It doesnt warp the meta. It just fits mechanics to story.

I don't think so. - Unless you're heavily investing in a lot of stats its not that much extra damage, and its more limited than the other raw damage fighting styles.

Weapon and spell stat combined, plus stat mod to damage, plus vatiable damage type, plus the ability to change the range of any spell that isn't touch at will. That is objectively worth muiltple phb fighting styles put together.

Because allowing an entire additional die to cantrip damage at low level would be too powerful.

If it cannot be used at-will, it shouldnt be a fighting style. No one needs more of the terrible superior technique FS.

Its mostly "enhance defences when using a non-optimal loadout". The extra wordiness is to try to avoid abuse or excessive synergies.

Yes i can read it just fine. I am saying it is clunky, and needlessly complex, not that it is confusing.

Those would probably be fine, both flavour and power. They aren't in the ballpark of the previous suggestion.

Wild.

 

[Minigiant]

How is a high int better than a high dex? Either way you still need at least a 14 in the secondary in order to not suck, you need Con even more than if you werent a gish, so your three highest ststs will probably be exactky the same numbers, just in different order.

And high dex is superior to high int once you look outside of attacking

Being SAD is better than +2 damage

 

[SkidAce]

Learn two cantrips from the wizard spell list, use your weapons attack stat as your spellcasting attribute.

 

[SkidAce]

I'd want a gish to use their weapon stat as their cantrip casting stat from the style.
...

I did not see this before my post.

 

[Silam]

Yep and frankly TS conflicts later on with EK's cantrip in place of a single attack feature, which is why it ought to instead be able to just attack with Int in general.

Indeed… which is a bit weird because actually, the Druid and the EK got each other’s cantrips, in a sense

Shillelagh is superior to TS for a build with Extra Attack (especially if they have 2EA or even 3EA, as the Fighter does). This is why we often see EK builds taking Magic Initiate Druid (and there’s nothing wrong with that…).

While TS has superior damage scaling than Shillelagh, if you have only one go at it per turn (as a Druid would).

The EK’s War Magic helps a bit, but still leaves all but one attack being regular ones (not cantrips).

The Multi-Cantrip Build (e.g., EK7+/BS6+, but there are other variants too…) can cast more than one cantrip in a round, and thus probably do well without Shillelagh (and even if running out of Bladesong). But that is a bit niche and most people don’t like that build due to delayed spellcasting.

While i prefer SAD design like 4e where every character ideally had 1 attack stat that was also the stat for one of thier 3 defenses, i would be fine with all gish characters being MAD. The fact Wizards and Warlocks can easily be SAD but the warrior classes cannot is pure bunk.

Well… any front-line character needs to have either decent Dex or decent Strength from a defensive standpoint. Your AC has got to come from somewhere, and it can either be from Dex or from heavy armor. So really, every gish is MAD in terms of needing one of Dex or Str, and one of the mental stats. That applies to the Bladesinger, the Bladelock, the Valor Bard, etc…

It’s good to get more stuff tied to one stat, but it’s never going to be as SAD as, let’s say, a Batman Wizard casting control spells from the back, far from the front-line action.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Indeed… which is a bit weird because actually, the Druid and the EK got each other’s cantrips, in a sense

Shillelagh is superior to TS for a build with Extra Attack (especially if they have 2EA or even 3EA, as the Fighter does). This is why we often see EK builds taking Magic Initiate Druid (and there’s nothing wrong with that…).

While TS has superior damage scaling than Shillelagh, if you have only one go at it per turn (as a Druid would).

The EK’s War Magic helps a bit, but still leaves all but one attack being regular ones (not cantrips).

The Multi-Cantrip Build (e.g., EK7+/BS6+, but there are other variants too…) can cast more than one cantrip in a round, and thus probably do well without Shillelagh (and even if running out of Bladesong). But that is a bit niche and most people don’t like that build due to delayed spellcasting.

Yep. A fighting style could bridge that gap, let the fighter be smart without losing much (a niche concern perhaps but there is desire in the community for smart fighters that arent nerfing themselves just to have good int for its own sake), EK and PW function better, etc, without making a more powerful character than already exists.

Well… any front-line character needs to have either decent Dex or decent Strength from a defensive standpoint. Your AC has got to come from somewhere, and it can either be from Dex or from heavy armor. So really, every gish is MAD in terms of needing one of Dex or Str, and one of the mental stats. That applies to the Bladesinger, the Bladelock, the Valor Bard, etc…

It’s good to get more stuff tied to one stat, but it’s never going to be as SAD as, let’s say, a Batman Wizard casting control spells from the back, far from the front-line action.

Exactly. That is why letting them focus on int isnt a big deal. They are still MAD, just a little less so. They're just swapping their dex and int and trading ac, dex save, and skills, for slightly better save dcs and spell attacks.