Alternate counterspells, a la Magic: the Gathering?

[RangerWickett]

In the original Magic: the Gathering, what types of counterspells were there?

Counterspell. You simply counter target spell. Most versatile, a little more mana intensive than the others. This is the equivalent of using a dispel magic spell in D&D.

Spell Blast. You counter a spell, but you have to pay as much mana as the actual spell costs, plus a little more. This would be like using an exact copy of a spell to counter it . . . except that's really prohibitive. This is more like the Improved Counterspell feat, which lets you use any spell of a higher level to counter a spell, instead of having to be an exact duplicate.

Power Sink. You pay mana, and they have to pay that much mana or else the spell is countered. Even if they can't pay the mana, they must tap all the lands they have, even if they don't want to. We could possibly make a feat that lets you burn spell slots, and gives your opponent the option to burn spell slots to keep their spell from being countered.

Later on, we got Force of Will, which requires you to discard a spell to counter a spell, but you don't need mana. This would be like Reactive Counterspell, which lets you counter a spell even if you don't ready an action, but you lose your action the next turn.

We also get Memory Lapse, a cheap spell which counters it then puts it on top of their library, so they can get it again. Maybe a 1st-level dispel magic that counters the spell, but lets your opponent keep the spell that was countered.

And Dissipate, which counters the spell and removes it from the game. . . . don't know how useful this is in D&D.

Plus mana drain, which counters a spell then lets you get mana the next turn. Maybe a type of counterspell that lets you steal the spell you counter?

What do you think? Could we introduce new options for counterspelling in D&D?

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Take a look at M Morris' Dusk section of ENWorld for spell conversions.

Power Sink myself I would make level 4 perhaps, Dispel Magic except the caster of it would sacrafice any # of spell levels/memorized spells, if the dispel check is successful, the caster of the spell must sacrafice that amount of spell levels/memorized levels (or as much as he can to that limit)

 

[RangerWickett]

I'd like to weaken the power of D&D spells overall just a little, but let mages cast more. It would make spell duels be more like sword duels, and less decided on who can pull out the bazooka first.

Or at least have this as an option.

Or better yet, give everyone magic points. Spells cost 1mp for 1st level, 3mp for 2nd, 5mp for 3rd, etc. If your spell costs MP of less than your caster level, you can cast the spell as a standard action.

2mp above your limit takes a full round. 4mp too high takes two full rounds. 6mp too high takes three rounds. And so on.

So a 6th level character with 20 magic points could try to cast a 9th level spell, which costs 17mp, but since it's 12mp too high, it would take a full six rounds to complete. Think of something like in Slayers, when Lina casts the Dragon Slave.

So . . . say we give characters a reduced rate of increasing this limit, then give them more MP. So mages can cast lots of weak spells as quick actions, or they cant try to use big spells, but it takes a while.

So characters have an MP Cost Cusp. Below or equal to the cusp, the spell takes a standard action. Above the cusp takes one full round or more.

Character Level -- MP Available -- MP Cost Cusp
1 -- 2 -- 1
2 -- 3 -- 1
3 -- 5 -- 1
4 -- 9 -- 3
5 -- 14 -- 3
6 -- 22 -- 3
7 -- 30 -- 5
8 -- 40 -- 5
9 -- 52 -- 5
10 -- 66 -- 7
11 -- 82 -- 7
12 -- 100 -- 7
13 -- 120 -- 9
14 -- 142 -- 9
15 -- 166 -- 9
16 -- 192 -- 11
17 -- 220 -- 11
18 -- 250 -- 11
19 -- 280 -- 13
20 -- 310 -- 13

So even high level characters have to take at least 2 full rounds to cast 9th level spells. But to compensate, we give them more options of things they can do with their magic. More counterspells, deflection spells, minor divinations and one-use things like Gandalf's spell of looking really intimidating to Bilbo.

 

[CombatWombat51]

Funny you brought this up... I started working on this exact idea about a week ago. Here's what I've got so far... I'm still undecided on the levels, but I see backlash as 2 or 3, force of will as 3 or 4, and prohibit as 4 or 5.


Backlash
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz ??
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: One spell
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: No

You counter an arcane spell as it is being cast, and cause harm to the caster. As a normal counterspell, you must have a readied action, though you don’t need to identify the spell. Make a caster level check (max +10), with a DC of 6 + the spell's caster level. If you succeed, the spell is countered, the enemy is stunned for one round, and he suffers 1d4 damage per odd caster level from severe head pain (max 5d4 at 9th level). If he succeeds at a Will save, he only takes half damage and isn’t stunned.
Focus: A mirror.


Force of Will
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz ??
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action (see text)
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: One spell
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You counter an arcane spell as it is being cast. As a normal counterspell, you must have a readied action, though you don’t need to identify the spell. Make a caster level check (max +10), with a DC of 6 + the spell's caster level. If you succeed, the spell is countered.
As an alternative, you can cast force of will as a free action if you sacrifice a number of hit points equal to double the level of the spell that you are countering.


Prohibit
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz ??
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: One spell (see text)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You counter an arcane spell as it is being cast. As a normal counterspell, you must have a readied action, though you don’t need to identify the spell. Make a caster level check (max +15), with a DC of 6 + the spell's caster level. If you succeed, the spell is countered, and all duplicates of that spell are wiped from your opponent’s memory for the day. In effect, the spell is no longer prepared (in the case of casters who prepare spells) or it simply can’t be cast for the rest of the day (in the case of casters who don’t prepare spells).


Also slated for creation:

-- A spell a level lower than backlash, that does the same thing except for the damage and the stun

-- A spell (prolly 1st level) that counters the spell, but gives some chance to keep the countered spell... opposed Wills, Spellcraft, something, I dunno

-- "Something Deflection" or maybe "Something Redirect": Not exactly a counterspell, but instead it allows you to choose a new target

-- A spell that counters, and also lets you cast an offensive spell at the enemy caster as a sort of "spell of opportunity"

-- A high level spell that counters a spell, and then the caster can't cast any spells of that school/descriptor for the rest of the day (like an advanced prohibit. Maybe two spells, saying I can decide which is more powerful: school or descriptor?

I hope this gives you some help, RW (hey, those are my initials IRL!). And maybe some kind souls can tell me what they think of what I've got so far

 

[Eternalknight]

We also had Forbid, Mana Leak, and Mana Drain, plus I think a buyback counterspell version in the Tempest block.

 

[thullgrim]

I was going to make Counterspell a first level spell, it could be heightened to make it any other level. It would counter a spell of equal or lower level. I think I like your way more though.

Thullgrim

 

[Michael Morris]

I have done much in this vein already, and when blue becomes the feature color on the site a lot more counterspells will naturally be introduced. But green got March's vote, so Blue won't reign until at least April :\

Counterspell, Powersink, Dissapate, Refutation are already on the site. Spellblast is in one of the threads. Spell points are on the Dusk site to put a limiter on spells.

But sometimes I wonder if it is actually being read.

 

[Urza82]

Alright Guys, this is the one i really want to be liked the most, this is my favorite spell in the game, and i really want it to be acceptable... so please try to work on it with me.


Counterspell (Abjuration- which ever Dispell Magic is)
Level: Wiz/Sor 2 Blue 2
Components: V,S
Casting Time:1 action
Range:Long (100ft +25ft/level)
Target: 1 spell
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: No
SR: No

You take you magical energies and skill and use them to make another arcane caster's spell falter into wasted energy. You must have a prepared action for the opposing caster to cast the spell. When he begins casting, you make a spellcraft check of 15 + the level of the spell. If you succeed the spell craft check, you know what you are countering and send the proper channels of energy to disrupt his spell. You try to impose your will upon his to force him to make a slight mistake to make the spell fizzle. You make an opposed roll, adding your level + your proper modifier against his level and proper modifier.

For example, if you are attempting to counter a Sorcerer's fireball. He has a charisma of 18(+4 mod) and is 10th level. You are a Wizard that has a 17(+3 Mod) Intelligence and are level 9. To his dice roll, the DM adds +14, to your dice roll, you add +12. He rolls a twelve lets say, and you also roll a twelve. He ends up with a 24 and you with a 22. You were not able to over ride his spell casting abilities and the counterspell goes unsuccessful. Its not that difficult.

This spell cannot counter divine magic, only Bards/Sorcerer/Wizards, and anyother forms of Arcane casters.

Let me know what you think... i really like it, i think the rolling ability puts the randomness back into the spell, and allows a nobody a chance to beat a somebody. It is only 2nd level, but it only affects arcane casters.... let me know what you think... please help me with this, i like it as it is, i dont think it is overpowered, or underpowered... i think it is appropriate considering the other counterspell spell, being dispell magic... let me know

 

[Ciaran]

Don't forget Force Spike! Ah, good old Force Spike. Won me a lot of games, that card did...

- Eric