Anybody played Hunter or Demon? How are they?

[blackshirt5]

OK, I know this is a little off topic as this is primarily a D20 board, but has anybody played Demon: the Fallen, or Hunter: the Reckoning, from White Wolf Studios? How are they? Could you give me an overview of them, what their strong and weak points are? I'm pondering buying some of the books before White Wolf kills the World of Darkness game lines.

 

[Crothian]

I played Hunter and was not that impressed with it. I really liked the Hunters Hunted book, but the Hunter the Reckoning just wasn't my cup of tea. I didn't like the changes to the system with the way powers are handle.

 

[blackshirt5]

ah; what about Demon? Right now I'm looking at Demon, Victorian Age Vampire, and Werewolf the Apocalypse as games I might run after Exalted.

 

[Gothmog]

My advise would be to skip Hunter- its too silly, and doesn't really fit into the whole WoD idea. Werewolf can be pretty cool with a good GM, but you have to be careful to keep it from becoming D&D with werewolf PCs (meaning every problem is solved with a fight). Victorian Age Vamp is a great game- much more evocative than modern Vamp, and the sourcebooks are top notch. I have actually used VaV books to give me ideas for my Deadlands game, so they aren't one-trick books. Finally, Demon is phenomenal- easily the deepest and most interesting game WW has made in many years. If I were you, I'd focus on Demon and VaV, and pick up what Werewolf stuff I could.

 

[Mercule]

Finally, Demon is phenomenal- easily the deepest and most interesting game WW has made in many years. If I were you, I'd focus on Demon and VaV, and pick up what Werewolf stuff I could.

I read through parts of Demon in Barnes and Noble one evening and it looked pretty interesting if handled right. My major concern is that several members of my gaming group, especially my wife and myself, are very strong Christians. Is there a way to play Demon without the character hating God? Does the game treat the Christian religion with respect, or is it hacked up a fair bit? Is it a game I'd be unwilling to let my 3 year old wander through the room while we played?

It looked like it could be a great game about reconcilliation with God/goodness and personal redemption. It also looked like it could be a game about tearing down the pillars of Christianity. Obviously, the latter is somewhat repugnant to me, but the former sounds _extremely_ cool.

Note: I'm not looking for Dragonfire, or whatever that religious RPG is. I'm just looking for a game that doesn't make me feel like I'm blaspheming by playing it.

 

[Gothmog]

Interesting points Mercule, and ones that are addressed in the game. Demon doesn't fall in completely with Christian theology- it is based on it, but the game assumes no real world religion has all the details of the divine war and fall. The angels were tasked with the development and nurturing of humanity by God, but never to reveal themselves to humans, and never interfere. The rebel angels loved humans as much as God (because they were told to), but it frustrated them that they were not allowed to interact with them. Then, one of the angels of the house of the stars foresaw that disaster would come to humanity, so the rebel angels decided to act. They revealed themselves to humanity, professed their love, and told them they would act as humanity's servants and protectors. Eventually a big war followed with the divine forces, and at first the rebels had the upper hand. But over time, the divine host gained strength, and the rebels were cast into Hell. However, Lucifer wasn't cast into Hell with them- and no one knows where he is. Additionally, as time passed, some demons vanished from Hell, apparently summoned by mortals to dot their bidding, and these demons later became Earthbound (basically bound into a relic on earth so they would not be subject to imprisonment in Hell again). When the game starts, the prison of Hell has cracks in it, allowing some demons to escape and come to earth, possess mortals, and pursue their agendas. While some demons want to find redemption with God, others are still loyal to Lucifer and his cause, and seek to find him, then finish the war with Heaven. Others were driven mad over the millenia in Hell, and want nothing more than to punish humanity and make them pay for the loss in the demon's power. Still others aren't so sure that they aren't menat to play a more important role in the days to come, and seek to understand why God would allow his perfect prison to break. Finally, some seek to establish a paradise on earth for themselves and those loyal to them.

Its an interesting take on mythology, and has made for some really memorable RP experiences so far. Nobody is completely in the right or wrong- God is not protrayed as completely noble, nor is Lucifer shown as a raving rebel. The other thing is that the demons depend on human belief and faith, and even in those that are angry at humanity now, they still feel the love they were ordered to feel for humanity. Very cool game that challenges many preconceptions and is very RP intensive.

 

[Nifelhein]

OK, I know this is a little off topic as this is primarily a D20 board, but has anybody played Demon: the Fallen, or Hunter: the Reckoning, from White Wolf Studios? How are they? Could you give me an overview of them, what their strong and weak points are? I'm pondering buying some of the books before White Wolf kills the World of Darkness game lines.

I actually played Hunter: The Reckoning, so I may have my say on it. The way we handled the game made it totally striking, we started and were "awaken" in the first session, with two werewolves fighting in the middle of a shopping, no big deal since many people actually did not remember it, but the group was formed when we looked around and saw who else was NOT petrified with fear.

The game went on for 6 months and we were a very paranoic investigative team that had many resources, we were the kind of find and slay team for humans against the supernatural, we have never ended the campaign though.

I liked the way the powers worked, but it seems the game would hardly be truly enjoyable in mroe than one game, it rocked, my character was a girl who lived with her father's money, a good amount, she was like alicia silverstone in that movie that gave way to a series, where she is a rich girl with nothing in her brain. It was awesome to get that character and make her something different, while being true to its nature.

Hunter was a very good experience, one of my two best characters so far is Michelle "Mickey", but I think it lacks options for plots, anyway that is something that could be different for you, the game I played in was VERY apocaliptic though, and we were discovering things bit by bit...

Just my experience with it though, great game!

 

[blackshirt5]

Alright; thanks for the feedback, everybody; I might pick up Victorian Age Vampire and use it with my existing Werewolf books to run a Victorian Werewolf game, actually.

 

[Mercule]

Nobody is completely in the right or wrong- God is not protrayed as completely noble, nor is Lucifer shown as a raving rebel. The other thing is that the demons depend on human belief and faith, and even in those that are angry at humanity now, they still feel the love they were ordered to feel for humanity. Very cool game that challenges many preconceptions and is very RP intensive.

Thanks for the info, Gothmog.

This one thing is bothering me: "God is not portrayed as completely noble." This, of course, doesn't work with my personal world view. Not that I mind a good theologic discussion, but I don't want to immerse myself in an extended RP situation that is that opposed to my own view of right or wrong.

I don't even mind the idea of _playing_ a Demon who is still opposed to God. What _would_ bother me is if the foundation of the game explicitly required a God who was not entirely good. If the game allowed for the possibility that God's plan was a wise and ultimately good one, then I think I could have fun with it. If that concept is ruled out my the setting then I should probably not even bother.

I've read most of the backstory from the book, and haven't seen anything out-of-bounds, yet. Since this discussion popped up, I figured it was a good opportunity to ask a couple of questions of players of the game.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Thanks for the info, Gothmog.

This one thing is bothering me: "God is not portrayed as completely noble." This, of course, doesn't work with my personal world view. .... What _would_ bother me is if the foundation of the game explicitly required a God who was not entirely good. If the game allowed for the possibility that God's plan was a wise and ultimately good one, then I think I could have fun with it.

Well, with WW almost nothing is ruled out and if it is a supplement will rule it back in. And ultimately that's up to the GM.

This is going to be fairly hard to discuss without risking a flame war of, well, biblical proportions, but let's give it a shot. Assuming a strictly King James Old/New Testament view of the Bible (my personal background and a common one), it would be quite easy to see God as being less than completely noble. Look at a Fallen who was around when Moses dropped the plagues. Sure, they ended up freeing the slaves but only after killing every firstborn son and turning rivers to blood. The crucifiction of Jesus is another event that could easily turn someone's opinion of God negative if they witnessed it first hand or possibly were friends with Jesus. Imagine a Demon who was a close, personal friend of Job; would he have a "warm fuzzy" for God?

God is, by definition, a "big picture" being who is willing to sacrifice others to ensure the "right" thing happens. Even if every being had volunteered to be sacrificed there would be a number of people/angels/demons/whatever that wouldn't agree with the situation. And the only way to disagree with God is to decide that he is either not entirely good or that he is in fact fallible.

Since the Demons escaped from their prison either God is fallable or they are part of one of his weird plans. Every demon's heart could be as pure as the driven snow and the difference between them following or opposing God would come down to faith.