AoO Cleave

[FCWesel]

Say two foes attack an ogre who has cleave.

One is already figithing in melee with the ogre and the other is coming up to the two to aid his companion.

As the Ogre has reach, the approaching one provokes a AoO from the Ogre. Lets say that the Ogre takes his AoO and manages to DOWN one who came in at him.

Since he downed a target and since he has cleave (as long as he hasn't used cleave YET this round) he can cleave the other figure by him correct?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

The general consensus is yes.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Aye, right.

Ever heard of that Whirlwind - Great Cleave - Snail basket combo? (Ok, it's munchkinism, but...)

 

[Pbartender]

Yup... an anecdote...

My wife once had an axe-weilding fighter with Great Cleave. during one adventure, a group of 6 enemy warriors decides to attack her. The first five move straight in and almost surround her. The DM decides to move the last warrior through his buddies (and her threatened space), because that way, he has just enough movement to get all the way around her and flank her. Well, she took her AoO against the guy, and Great Cleaved the lot of them, before they could get a single attack off.

Funny thing is, when she first made the character, she wanted to climb a completely different feat tree, but the DM talked her into taking the Cleaves instead.

Remember, the whole "idea" behind Cleaving is that you are hitting the enemy so hard that you smash all the way through him and into the next guy... Think of Sauron at the beginning of LotR. He swings his mace, and a dozen warriors go flying with a single blow. If you statted him up, Sauron would probably have Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, and Expert Tactician.

 

[Saepiroth]

Aye, right.

Ever heard of that Whirlwind - Great Cleave - Snail basket combo? (Ok, it's munchkinism, but...)

i adapt Lewis Black to this situation whenever i hear it.

"when you see someone do that, you do one thing. just... grab the back of his head, and slam it down into the table. rub his face around in his character sheets, like it was dogsh*t or something, and tell him 'NO!'. because... because you just don't DO that! and slash his tires on the way out."

 

[mikebr99]

Say two foes attack an ogre who has cleave.

One is already figithing in melee with the ogre and the other is coming up to the two to aid his companion.

As the Ogre has reach, the approaching one provokes a AoO from the Ogre. Lets say that the Ogre takes his AoO and manages to DOWN one who came in at him.

Since he downed a target and since he has cleave (as long as he hasn't used cleave YET this round) he can cleave the other figure by him correct?

This is very legal and righteous!

All hail the Ogre!!!

Long live the Cleave chain!

Mike

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The general consensus is yes.

Agreed, it is quite clear what the letter of the rules say.

I would like to pipe in and say I think AoO + Cleave is a Bad Thing(tm), and I would urge DMs to houserule against it.

My main concerns are:
(1) It discourages hard-pressed PCs from retreating -- not only could your character die, but you might kill your friend's character in the process. Players that are too thickheaded to retreat their PCs against an overwhelming foe is a very common DM complaint. If you accidentally wipe out the party for attempting to do so, you are teaching them a bad habit.
(2) It creates an ugly loophole for generating "extra" attacks. Example: Wizard summons 3 weak creatures to rush in and attack party Fighter with reach weapon, so that the Fighter will gain 3 bonus attacks on a high SR Monster.

 

[mikebr99]

Agreed, it is quite clear what the letter of the rules say.

I would like to pipe in and say I think AoO + Cleave is a Bad Thing(tm), and I would urge DMs to houserule against it.

And you are most welcome to your opinion...

My main concerns are:
(1) It discourages hard-pressed PCs from retreating -- not only could your character die, but you might kill your friend's character in the process. Players that are too thickheaded to retreat their PCs against an overwhelming foe is a very common DM complaint. If you accidentally wipe out the party for attempting to do so, you are teaching them a bad habit.

no... I think it just makes the PC's think a little harder about when they should retreat... if they are close to dying this round... odds are they were a few rounds ago also.

(2) It creates an ugly loophole for generating "extra" attacks. Example: Wizard summons 3 weak creatures to rush in and attack party Fighter with reach weapon, so that the Fighter will gain 3 bonus attacks on a high SR Monster.

Does this really happen in your game? You might have bigger problems then adding a houserule...

Seriously... instead of houseruling the whole thing out of your game, you might want to just inforce the... (highlighted for clarity)

Cleave [General]
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Power Attack.
Benefit: If the character deals a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points, killing
it, etc.), the character gets an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature in the immediate vicinity. The character
cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as
the attack that dropped the previous creature. The character can use this ability once per round.

It is a little vague in the description, but you could say that "in the immediate vicinity" is with respect to the target, not the cleaver. Enforce that the target of the cleave has to be within 1 or 2 squares of the 1st victim. This stops, or at least lessens the 'bag-O-snails' tactic.

If you are surrounded by a bunch of Kobolds and a big evil guy, you have to great cleave through a bunch of kobolds before you even get one on the BBEG.

Make the fighter choose the arc of his swing, and he keeps cleaving clockwise until the feat is over or he doesn't kill, whichever comes first.

my $.02...

Mike

 

[KnowTheToe]

Yup... an anecdote...

My wife once had an axe-weilding fighter with Great Cleave. during one adventure, a group of 6 enemy warriors decides to attack her. The first five move straight in and almost surround her. The DM decides to move the last warrior through his buddies (and her threatened space), because that way, he has just enough movement to get all the way around her and flank her. Well, she took her AoO against the guy, and Great Cleaved the lot of them, before they could get a single attack off.

The best part of this was that Tony, the DM, had such a devious look in his eye as he hoped to lay serious smack against the fighter. That was a good fight.

 

[Pax]

Agreed, it is quite clear what the letter of the rules say.

I would like to pipe in and say I think AoO + Cleave is a Bad Thing(tm), and I would urge DMs to houserule against it.

Rejoice, for I have. 8)

IMO, if you have Cleave, and you get an AoO which drops your foe ... that AoO simply doesn't count against your per-round limit of AoO's. Satisfies the benefits of Cleave (drop a foe and the attack doesn't count as "used"), but you still can't make non-AoO attacks, nor AoO's against folks who didn't trigger one, when it's not your turn -- so avoids the bucket-of-snails cheese entirely.

Thoughts?