D&D 5E Ardents in 5e

[gyor]

I was wondering how you guys would build an Ardent class for 5e?

I thought at first that the Ardent could be done as a Speciality, like Avenger and Invoker, but now I think it'd work better as a class.

See Avengers can be done easly with feats, one for Oath of Enimity, One for Pubishing those that violate your Oath and that's basically an Avenger's key features.

Invoker would be basically divine spells for Clerics and maybe a feat to use rods and Staffs. Invokers didn't have many features.

That just an example.

But Ardents had a really cool unique flavour with thier mantles and how either powers work. They weren't just empaths that could feel an emotion or cause an emotional state, they took all the emotions of everyone around then and weaved those varied emotions, plus emotions they'd altered together to create a permant field Psionic energy, the mantle, which buffed allies.

I've decided Ardents were my favourite class from 4e.

For 5e I'd focus the class more on the mantle then atwills, so he's more different then the Psion.

I think features and abilities that alter the mantle should be the main focus.

I'll develop the idea more as I come up with ideas. Feel free to share your ideas.

 

[triqui]

I'm not sure why would we need an Ardent, in all honesty. In case we do, I think we should nail the psion first, to know how would psionics work

 

[RangerWickett]

You liked 4e ardents? Man I could not wrap my head around their powers. So many "it normally does this, but if you spend a power point it doesn't get better, but instead does something slightly different."

That said, I think the easiest way to handle them would be to give them a list of mantles (and they learn more per level), and then let them choose a few psion powers (again, they learn more as they level). Y'know, sorta like how the sorcerer in the playtest also uses wizard spells, but has a different mechanic for actually getting those spells. The ardent would be a psion with fewer powers, and overall access to lower-level powers, but with the mantle that could affect the world around her.

I had an idea a year ago for an 'Essential Ardent,' which I never fully worked up. It was based on the etymologically-stretched thought in my head that ardent is from ardor, and ardor is passion, and passion is based in the heart, so each mantle could be called "[something]-heart."

So Lion Heart Mantle would improve everyone's bravery around you, making it a fairly standard mantle, akin to bardic music.

Dragon Heart Mantle would maybe grant fire resistance and let people's weapon attacks deal bonus fire damage. It would combo well with psion pyrokinesis powers (which I hope they'll have).

Heart of Gold Mantle would aid healing and diplomacy.

Heart of Ice would be a cold version of dragon heart.

Rabbit Heart Mantle (stolen from a Florence + The Machine song) would increase speed and defenses.

Heart of Darkness would create darkness, obviously, and drive people to savagery.

Hollow Heart would make people resistant to psychic powers, and possibly invisible or more easily hidden.

Um . . . heart of palm would make a delicious salad.

 

[Shadeydm]

You liked 4e ardents? Man I could not wrap my head around their powers. So many "it normally does this, but if you spend a power point it doesn't get better, but instead does something slightly different."

I really liked this as a power model a good list of at wills that can be upgraded on a limited basis. I think i would have worked as framework for melee powers too with some tweaking.

 

[RangerWickett]

If it was "Hit for X and do this minor condition, or, if you spend a power point, Hit for X and the condition is more severe," I could have tracked that easily. For instance, hit and one ally gets +2 to attack the target; power point does more damage and all allies get +2 to attack target. That's fine, and makes sense.

But I recall weird stuff like: Hit and the target can't make opportunity attacks. Or spend a power point and your allies can shift around the target as a free action. Or spend 2 power points, hit everyone adjacent to you, and your allies can charge them.

It wasn't scaled up versions of the same power; it was completely unrelated powers smooshed together with only a thin rationale. At least, that's my opinion.

I dug the monk, though.

 

[Steely_Dan]

I'm not sure why would we need an Ardent, in all honesty. In case we do, I think we should nail the psion first, to know how would psionics work

Exactly, I want Psionics (psion) straight out of the gate, or not at all, otherwise it will be once again the tacked on, after-the-fact, redheaded stepchild of D&D.

 

[Steely_Dan]

I dug the monk, though.

I hear they've nailed the Monk for 5th Ed (something like the easiest class to design), yet brought out the Sorcerer and Warlock first.


Annoying.

 

[Shadeydm]

I hear they've nailed the Monk for 5th Ed (something like the easiest class to design), yet brought out the Sorcerer and Warlock first.


Annoying.

My guess would be they trotted out those two to appease the anti vancian crowd with potential alternate magic systems. Looking forward to a well done throwback to the 1E monk personally!

 

[Steely_Dan]

My guess would be they trotted out those two to appease the anti vancian crowd with potential alternate magic systems. Looking forward to a well done throwback to the 1E monk personally!

Exactly!

The Sorcerer/Warlock action was definitely to appease the "wha, wha, I won't play 5th Ed if I can't play a non-Vancian Wizard!" malarkey.

As for the 1st Ed Monk, I am totally with you (again, gonna have to keep my eye on you), that class is just cool, obviously clunky, but easily cleaned up with 5th Ed's deal (no THACO etc).

The 1st Ed Monk is a fascinating class to me, speaks to animals and plants, some stealth (thief) abilities, increased speed, resistance to mental attacks, dodging missiles, fall great distances unharmed, love it, and how cool is it to be The Grand Master of Flowers!

...never seen it done, but still.


Oh, and also, I do not want the word "Ki" (or Chi) mentioned anywhere in the Monk description.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

... otherwise it will be once again the tacked on, after-the-fact, redheaded stepchild of D&D.

That's a feature, not a bug.

 

[BobTheNob]

The Ardent?

Isnt the only reason that class even existed to to give a nice psionic fit for 4e's tank/striker/leader/controller and pisonics didnt have a "leader" class?

Really, given 5e doesnt have formal roles, why would you want to resuscitate this class? Nail the Psion, make the "ardent" a specialization.

 

[gyor]

Ardent wouldn't fit as Psion, it'd be like trying to make a bard using a wizard.

Ardent were made to fill a niche in the Role/Power source grid, but unlike others doing that duty, the fluff and features were awesome and flavourful.

I do admit that most of the powers themselves with a few exceptions were wtf moments and did not fit the basic flavour of the class itself.

Here's my attempt at a 5e Ardent class.

Features:

Mantle: Ardents both feels and see the emotions around them and how they connect and influence each other. Using his own passions he can take this emotions and connection and both weave them together into a field of psionic emotional energy and alter the emotions and connections. Each Ardent has an emotion that defines them more then others and that emotion taints thier Mantle.

Emotions: Ecstasy all allies and Ardent gain a bonus to bluff and diplomacy checks.

Rage Add Charisma to Indimadation and Atheletic checks.

Optimism Add Charisma to Diplomacy and Heal checks

Despair Add Charisma to Slieght of hand and Stealth checks

Love Add Charisma to Perception and Diplomacy checks.

Madness Add Charisma Bluff and Forbidden Lore checks.

Patterns: Patterns are special powerful alterations to you mantle. Patterns are hard to hold for long so extra psionic power is needed. Patterns have a power point cost dependant on the level of Pattern. Patterns buff someone in the Ardents mantle by focusing psionic energy on them or harm someone in the mantle. Some examples latter.

Power Points Pool: Both your own and the emotions of those in your mantle become converted into the psionic energy that powers and shapes your mantle. As such it is capable of holding in its matrix concetrations of Psionic energy call power points. This is a pool of power that the Ardent can draw on to temporaly improve his mantle.

Empath: An Ardent knows the emotional state of any character in his mantle who is not protected from his abilities by magic. A target of Empathy can make a Charisma save to block the Empath or a Bluff check to give a false impression.

Biofeedback: You send powerful Psionically enhanced emotions surging through someone, kicking in thier natural healing abilities into high gear via thier brain and nervious system or equivlant. Heals 1d6 plus charisma damage per power point spent.

This idea will evolve. Like each mantle emotion will have an attack bonus ability for the Ardent that is always on, part of thier mantles natural shape.

 

[drothgery]

The Ardent?

Isnt the only reason that class even existed to to give a nice psionic fit for 4e's tank/striker/leader/controller and pisonics didnt have a "leader" class?

Really, given 5e doesnt have formal roles, why would you want to resuscitate this class? Nail the Psion, make the "ardent" a specialization.

No, the Ardent existed in 3.5 too; it was in Complete Psionic.

 

[Grimmjow]

i dont think we need an ardent in 5e (DDN). Make it a speciality and i'll be fine

 

[gyor]

In 3.5 the Adent was a philospher, not an Empath, but he still had Mantles, although,they worked differently. Personally I liked the 4e Ardent better, but the philospher verison would be good for Planescape campaign.

And stop trying to force feed everything into specialities, the machanics are too big, too major to be force fed into a a couple of feats. Its just like they said about the Barbarians Rage Mechanic, only for the Ardents Mantle.

 

[triqui]

Exactly!

The Sorcerer/Warlock action was definitely to appease the "wha, wha, I won't play 5th Ed if I can't play a non-Vancian Wizard!" malarkey.

That crowd has exactly the same rights to be appeased than the "wha, wha, I won't play 5th edition if I can´t play a Vancian Wizard" crowd. No more, no less.

 

[Steely_Dan]

That crowd has exactly the same rights to be appeased than the "wha, wha, I won't play 5th edition if I can´t play a Vancian Wizard" crowd. No more, no less.

I don't agree, the Wizard has been Vancian for over 30 years (not some D&D Miniatures variant Heinsoo & Co. came up with 4 years ago), even in 4th Ed, as all classes are, so what's the problem?

Mod note: Edition warring, again? This is a fast way to exit a thread, folks. Don't follow this example. ~Umbran

 

[triqui]

I don't agree, the Wizard has been Vancian for over 30 years (not some D&D Miniatures variant Heinsoo & Co. came up with 4 years ago), even in 4th Ed, as all classes are, so what's the problem?

That's a so cheap low troll attempt to edition war, that no answer would make this a constructive conversation.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Ardent as a class is something I feel has a good chance of not appearing in 5e, yet I'm confident the Battlemind/Psychic Warrior will appear.

And I feel if anything Ardent might be a more "leaderish" focus of the Battlemind, if it doesn't become an outright specialty. Though if there isn't an Ardent specialty I'm absolutely confident there will be an Empath specialty, that so many wanted the Ardent to be.

 

[gyor]

If you take out a couple of feature like the Ardent's mantle and the Battleminds mind spike their basically the same class with different primary stats. Both kind of have a Jedi Knight feel, especially with the Unseelie Agent Theme. I could see the two classes combined, but I'd want the Mantle kept. And call it something better then Psyic warrior or Battlemind. No more people calling it warbrain

Both had lots in common each other as weapon using classes and pp users. Psions had only had pp use in common. Monks not even that.

How about this call the class Mentalists with An Empath (Adent like options) and Champion (Battlemind/Pyschic Warrior) builds (like domains for clerics).