D&D 5E Are "evil gods" necessary? [THREAD NECRO]

Chaosmancer

Legend
Nothing is necessary, but the OP seems to be trying to argue that evil gods are redundant, because they can't see a difference between slightly evil and very evil.

And this is where real world religion comes in, by not really allowing for different degrees of evil.

I'm sorry, what?

Erythnul - God of Slaughter and butchery who wants you to massacre everything

Nerull - God of Death who literally wants to snuff out all life

Incabulos and Talona are both dieties of disease, poison and death, who want all the world to suffer and die.


Then we have The Beast of Butchery Yeenoghu, who wants to kill everything, Orcus the Prince of the Undead who wants to kill everything and rule it, and Asmodeus.


Which of these is the "slightly evil" side of the spectrum? These all seem very evil to me.
 

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cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I think this is all doable in D&D. It requires some thought about what to do with clerics and paladins.
This is one of the things I liked about Xoth, they came up with a replacements for the cleric and paladin with the classes cultist and conqueror respectively to better fit the sword and sorcery feel of the game they were trying for.

Even without that, I would be inclined to keep clerics for the "good" religions. Using the Hyborean age as an example Mitra has his priests (clerics) and then have warlocks, wizards, or sorcerers (or all of them) for cultists of the various demon lords. It doesn't quite work though since the crusading cleric archetype doesn't really fit the priests of Mitran religion. I might even refine my white wizard class which is a cleric replacement.

I did like the old Mongoose conan d20 game which just had the scholar class which was used for pretty much any caster class. Priests, cultists, vile sorcerers were all the scholar class.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Yes, I'm necro'ing my own thread, because I posted a link to it for @Charlaquin and then went back and re-read it and still found the whole thing interesting. Mainly because unlike a lot of D&D discussion, it wasn't about people primarily saying "I'm right, you're wrong!" but instead talking with reason and personal opinion.

Now that we are three years past the point of the last post... I can see that I indeed did take some of my own opinions to heart when I fleshed out my Theros pantheon. Despite WotC indeed making Mogis an "evil god" as per his assigned alignment (along with Athreos, Erebos and Pharika all being defined as "evil" for whatever reason WotC decided to assign them)... I went in and re-did all the deity's portfolios to give all of them positive and neutral/negative attributes, and make them all outside the paradigm of defined "Good and Evil". Heliod might be thought of as a golden boy-- but he's also still a massive, prideful jerk. So his portfolio has what people might say are so-called "good" domains and so-called "evil" domains. And the same holds true for all of them. This is how I eventually defined my Theros pantheon:


Principal Kindred
HeliodMGod of the Sunthe sun, oaths, bravery, arrogance
ErebosMGod of the Deaddeath, acceptance, wealth, bitterness
NyleaFGod of the Huntnature, the hunt, rebirth, predation
PurphorosMGod of the Forgefire, artisans, creation, destruction
ThassaFGod of the Seathe sea, gradual change, dispassion
Succeeding Kindred
AthreosMGod of Passagejourneys, borders, apathy
EpharaFGod of the Polisindustry, civics, philosophy, law
IroasMGod of Victoryhonor, confidence, discipline
KarametraFGod of Harvestshearth, agriculture, domestication
KeranosMGod of Stormsstorms, wisdom, epiphany, impatience
KruphixMGod of Horizonshorizons, time, mysteries, fate
MogisMGod of Zealcomraderie, fury, love, bloodlust
PharikaFGod of Afflictionmedicine, poison, science, grief
PhenaxMGod of Deceptioncunning, subtlety, manipulation
XenagosMGod of Revelrycelebration, debauchery, schadenfreude


It ended up being really useful to me, as my players did eventually run into a minotaur priest of Mogis, and they actually engaged him as a person first and foremost, rather than just default to "Priest of an evil god! Kill him!" (which is what I was afraid my players might have tended to do because it's just easier.) And the priest was all about having "blood brothers" and intense love and friendship with his traveling compatriots-- while at the same time coming from a minotaur tribe that was rumored to be bloodthirsty and violent. It made for more interesting discussion and roleplay by removing the "default alignment" from the gods to begin with and make every character their own individual, rather than merely a stand-in for their gods' attributes (and thus more easy to just treat as inhuman.)

By the sake token, I have indeed created my own divine pantheon for a potential future homebrew campaign world that does in fact remove "gods" from the setting. Or actually-- more to the point-- 'God' becomes a title, rather than a creature type. The setting has named and personified "head-honcho" LG Archangels, CG Archfey, LE Archdevils, and CE Archdemons... and thus all four groups are considered "the gods" when people speak about these divine beings. And what's nice about seeing the new Warlock subclasses in the 5E24 playtests is that they all now can pretty much line up to this format if I ever decided to run this game and wanted to remove the cleric class and use Warlocks (probably renamed 'Priests') instead. Celestial, Fey, Fiend (for the archdevils) and move GOO over to archdemons. Although truth be told, I'm actually probably never going to get around to it, even if it does look and work nicely, LOL.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I’m not sure I have much to contribute about evil gods that hasn’t already been said. I think they’re fine in a Saturday Morning Cartoon world where the conceit of pure black-and-white morality is a thing, but in a more nuanced world they don’t really make a lot of sense. Realistically, an “evil god” is just a god worshipped by your enemies, who in turn probably see your god(s) as evil as well. But we all know what Gary said about realism in D&D.

What I might be able to add that hasn’t already been said (unless it has, I haven’t read the whole 15 pages 😅) is that the “God of Things” phenomenon is also pretty ahistorical. I can see the appeal of defining gods by their “portfolios” rather than their alignments, but that’s kind of an oversimplification of how polytheistic religions actually work. Maybe there was one god you would offer sacrifice to for a good harvest and another you would offer sacrifice to for a safe journey at sea. But they weren’t The God of the Harvest and The God of The Sea per se. The gods were more like people. Complex beings with many-faceted personalities, interests, and drives, who happened to hold tremendous power. There was also frequently significant overlap in the domains over which various gods held sway.

My preference for fictional gods is to first of all make them far more distant than is typical in D&D, a la Eberron. Then I focus less on “what is this god’s alignment and what’s in their portfolio?” and more on “who worships this god and why?” I also generally prefer for peoples to follow religions rather than individual gods. Only Clerics really do the whole thing of devoting themselves to one god within their pantheon, and that’s kind of more like specializing in a certain field or discipline. A Cleric of Pelor is someone who specializes in the cult of Pelor (that’s “cult” in the classic sense, referring collectively to the practices and ceremonies of honoring that god, not in the more modern sense of a quasi-religious following built around a charismatic leader).
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Odd. I swear I remember posting in this thread, but the forum search turned up nothing. Guess it's time to correct that!

As with many things, whether you use "evil" gods, or "everything's grey" gods, or "gods are good, but demons/devils/etc. exist," or even "gods are evil but other supernatural powers can be good"...these are all tools. The most productive thing is to go in clear-eyed, with intent and conviction.

Personally, I like the idea of "evil" gods that are still useful, even necessary, because that forces a tension that I think gets bled out by having everyone always be equally ambivalent/grey-and-grey/etc. Such approaches just make it hard for me to really care about any of them. Especially if it actually verges on being black-and-black morality as is so popular these days, as TVTropes says, "Too Bleak, Stopped Caring."

But if you're going to do this, you really have to know what you're doing. And yes, there is the issue of "OUR gods are good, THEIR gods are evil," but even that isn't always fitting a given pantheon. The Egyptians had Set, aka Sutekh, who was pretty bad and often genuinely vilified by the Egyptians themselves, but also represented the ability of the deep desert to protect Egypt from its enemies. Or the actual Tiamat, who was both a progenitor goddess (the primordial salt-ocean, alongside Abzu's primordial freshwater) and a mother of horrible monsters who would defend any of her children...including the ones extremely keen on eating mortals by the dozen or whatever.

Part of why I like this is also that I'm pretty partial to the idea that true deities (as opposed to simply powerful supernatural beings that ordinary mortals revere or worship) are metaphysically linked to or embodiments of their core concepts. Tiamat (the D&D one) is not just a powerful supernatural being that happens to be able to grant powers related to strife, vengeance, greed, and tyranny. She actually embodies these things. Which means, to truly slay her is to truly weaken these abstract concepts within the world. Just as these things exist independently of her, her destruction cannot end them forever, but the world is in fact a kinder, more forgiving, more just, more generous place if she is destroyed.

Yet such destruction necessarily has knock-on consequences, both instrumental (sudden power vacuums are always...problematic at best) and inherent (you just killed one of the few gods that survived the Dawn War, and perhaps more importantly, one of the few gods who could be relied upon to rally "evil" against "oblivion.") Hence, even evil deities have uses and may even be "necessary" in some sense. Thwarting without eliminating can in fact actually be the wiser choice. That's deeply interesting to me, because it means even deeply committed "always do good, never do anything that smells of Dirty Business" characters need to really think and put in cognitive, moral effort rather than just coasting on "be nice and kick evil's butt."
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
My view on gods is that they are personifications of forces of nature and aspects of humanity. Under that view their must be evil gods, because at least one of them will be the personification of theft, murder, etc. and those aren't going to be good or neutral gods.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
My view on gods is that they are personifications of forces of nature and aspects of humanity. Under that view their must be evil gods, because at least one of them will be the personification of theft, murder, etc. and those aren't going to be good or neutral gods.

What if there was a evil god like that, and the good and the natural ones got rid of the evil god. And now a little theft and murder and etc is personified a in each of them. Or what if there never was that evil god, and it was always split up among the others. Just like it is split up among their worshippers. So it's ok if everyone thinks of doing those things, or maybe sometimes doing them. It's just how they were made.

Or is that just what the hidden evil god wants them to think.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
On further reflection, I’ve been thinking of gods largely as objects of worship, but there’s certainly a case for gods as objects of fear. Maybe “Good” gods could be viewed as the entities you make sacrifices to in prayer for favorable outcomes, while “evil” gods are the ones you make sacrifices to in hopes of appeasing, to avoid some unfavorable outcome. But I think I would still prefer most if not all gods to have aspects of both. You pray to the sky god for fair weather but also appease him to avoid being smote by lightning. You pray to the agricultural god for good harvest but also appease her to avoid drought. You pray to the warrior god for victory but also appease him to avoid being raided or conquered. You pray to the underworld god both to protect the souls of your loved ones but also appease her in hopes she doesn’t come for yours yet. Etc.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What if there was a evil god like that, and the good and the natural ones got rid of the evil god. And now a little theft and murder and etc is personified a in each of them. Or what if there never was that evil god, and it was always split up among the others. Just like it is split up among their worshippers. So it's ok if everyone thinks of doing those things, or maybe sometimes doing them. It's just how they were made.

Or is that just what the hidden evil god wants them to think.
Then another would just rise to take his or her place. The gods are like forces of nature and/or belief. If you create a vacuum, it will be eventually be filled. It might be instantaneous or it might take a few years/decades, but another would come.
 

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