Artificer Update: results of the survey and more

Xeviat

Explorer
Interesting. I found it super bland. I still feel like it is a class that needs to be made (it's a missing archetype and attaching it to an existing class would bring too much baggage), but this latest version doesn't feel like it gets anything on it's own.

Plus, I don't feel like the caster focused versions deal enough damage. I see that reloading crossbow or gun being their main source of damage, not their wands, even with +Int to damage.
 

Parmandur

Legend
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxQxu_sbSlM

Some highlights:

- The alchemist homonculus will become optional
- Overall satisfaction with the class is very high, some subclasses are less popular than others (best to worse: Battle smith, artillerist, archivist and alchemist)
- A number of mentions about Eberon.
The Class seems just about ready to go. The changes and tuning he mentions are good, but I'm overall extremely happy with the Class.
 

tglassy

Adventurer
Me too. I was hesitant about the Turret at first, but really, it's an amazing addition with a lot of good uses, and just uses a bonus action. At lvl 14, that becomes two turrets for one bonus action.
 

Gradine

Archivist
Weird, Archivist and Alchemist were my favorites (my only problem with the Archivist is that it wasn't anything like the 3.5 Archivist, but that's not the class's fault)
 

Kobold Avenger

Adventurer
I don't think there's a problem with the Artillerist's Force Ballista, as that makes a high level Artillerist do a fair amount damage every round with something like 4d8+Int Mod (Cantrip)+2d8+2d8. It's the Flamethrower part that needs improvement.
 

tglassy

Adventurer
Plus, I don't feel like the caster focused versions deal enough damage. I see that reloading crossbow or gun being their main source of damage, not their wands, even with +Int to damage.
I disagree, especially when considering ability scores. The Battle Smith is very obviously SAD, as everything is keyed off INT, both spells and combat damage. That gives it a very, very good incentive to take the Repeating Shot and use a Heavy Crossbow or a pair of Hand Crossbows, so you can fight as well as anyone and only use one ability. Pump Con next because of saving proficiency, and then Dex, and the rest can be dumped, or forget Dex and pump something else for RP reasons.

For any of the others to benefit from taking Repeating Shot, they’d have to have Dex higher, which hurts Con and everything else. The other subclasses are very MAD because of this. Unless they use their own class abilities and don’t take Repeating Shot or use crossbows.

For the Artilarist, they get a special wand that allows them to use their Int mod for damage. They can then Infuse the Wand with Enhanced Wand and now it’s attack roll is Int+1 (+2 at lvl 12), and you ignore half cover, and you still gain a bonus to damage equal to your Int. By using Wands and Cantrips instead of Crossbows, you make the Artilarist much more SAD.

Alchemists can add their Int roll to either healing or Acid/Poison damage, so Acid Splash and Poison Spray become viable, and therefore makes him more SAD if those are the main form of combat. The Archivist can psychically attack with his Artificial Mind, which adds the Int mod, making him SAD if that is chosen as the main form of attack. And for these two, you don’t need a combat infusion, which opens up a spot for some other kind of infusion.

Yeah, a repeating Heavy Crossbow is awesome, but really only the Battle Smith gets the most out of it due to using Int instead of Dex. If any of the others try to use it instead of their own skills, they have to up both Int and Dex to accomplish the same thing.
 

tglassy

Adventurer
I don't think there's a problem with the Artillerist's Force Ballista, as that makes a high level Artillerist do a fair amount damage every round with something like 4d8+Int Mod (Cantrip)+2d8+2d8. It's the Flamethrower part that needs improvement.
I don't know, being able to inflict 1d8 damage to everything in a 15 ft cone, which is up to 6 creatures, is pretty devastating. Add two of them in the right spot and you're doing 4d8+Int Mod (cantrip) to one creature, and 2d8 or half to up to six creatures. So it's a choice between concentrated fire on one creature (doing an extra 4d8 with two balistas) or spread damage to lots of creatures (doing an extra 2d8 to six creatures, potentially making that an extra 12d8 of total damage). Plus, the flamethrower always done some damage, even if they save.
 

Xeviat

Explorer
I don't know, being able to inflict 1d8 damage to everything in a 15 ft cone, which is up to 6 creatures, is pretty devastating. Add two of them in the right spot and you're doing 4d8+Int Mod (cantrip) to one creature, and 2d8 or half to up to six creatures. So it's a choice between concentrated fire on one creature (doing an extra 4d8 with two balistas) or spread damage to lots of creatures (doing an extra 2d8 to six creatures, potentially making that an extra 12d8 of total damage). Plus, the flamethrower always done some damage, even if they save.

A 17+ level rogue is doing something like 9d6+Dex at this point, extra +1d6 with TWFing or crossbow expert, with minimal chance to miss landing sneak attack.

Also, you can't stack the same turret.
 

Xeviat

Explorer
[MENTION=6855204]tglassy[/MENTION], I suppose I assumed most Artificers would be going for Dex primary since they're a half caster. Their cantrip damage, even with +Int mod doesn't seem to compete with crossbow with arcane weapon active. The artillerist's spell damage seems like it will be pretty low, but at least they get to use their turret's bonus action each round.

I like the subclasses, I just feel the base class is lacking something.
 

tglassy

Adventurer
A 17+ level rogue is doing something like 9d6+Dex at this point, extra +1d6 with TWFing or crossbow expert, with minimal chance to miss landing sneak attack
And a lvl 17 Artilarist is dealing 4d10+5 Firebolt damage with a +13 to hit, plus either 4d8 Balista with the ability to push, or up to 12d8 fire spread out amongst up to 12 enemies, or healing the party 2d8+10 health every round, or any combination of those, all as a bonus action that the Rogue is using for either his second attack or to disengage and run away. But at the same time they also are granting half cover to everyone nearby, which is not specified to only work on ranged attacks so it effectively grants a +2 to everyone’s AC and Dex saves, and have four Infused Magical items besides their Enhanced Wand that they are either using themselves, or giving to the rest of the party, all giving passive bonuses. Plus being a half caster. Meanwhile the Rogue has to make sure they even HAVE a Sneak Attack option, which they don’t always.

Also, you can't stack the same turret.
No, you can stack the same Turret. It says you CAN have different Turrets, not that you have to.
 

Xeviat

Explorer
And a lvl 17 Artilarist is dealing 4d10+5 Firebolt damage with a +13 to hit, plus either 4d8 Balista with the ability to push, or up to 12d8 fire spread out amongst up to 12 enemies, or healing the party 2d8+10 health every round, or any combination of those, all as a bonus action that the Rogue is using for either his second attack or to disengage and run away. But at the same time they also are granting half cover to everyone nearby, which is not specified to only work on ranged attacks so it effectively grants a +2 to everyone’s AC and Dex saves, and have four Infused Magical items besides their Enhanced Wand that they are either using themselves, or giving to the rest of the party, all giving passive bonuses. Plus being a half caster. Meanwhile the Rogue has to make sure they even HAVE a Sneak Attack option, which they don’t always.



No, you can stack the same Turret. It says you CAN have different Turrets, not that you have to.

Are you doubling up the turret damage? I'm seeing 1d8x2 for flamethrower or 4d8 for force ballista. You are right , you can stack them.
 

tglassy

Adventurer
The flamethrower is a 15 ft cube, which can catch 6 people, per turret. So it’s 1d8x12, potentially, or 2d8x6 if you hit six people twice.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
IAlchemists can add their Int roll to either healing or Acid/Poison damage, so Acid Splash and Poison Spray become viable, and therefore makes him more SAD if those are the main form of combat.
The problem with those cantrips is that they are mediocre. Poison's pray range is horrid, and acid splash 1d6 is low and scales poorly (ie it gets comparatively worse with time). The solution to me is easy - add fire to the list. Alchemist's fire is a thing! It won't overshadow the warlock with eldrich blast, because the stat damage is only added once.

Yeah, a repeating Heavy Crossbow is awesome, but really only the Battle Smith gets the most out of it due to using Int instead of Dex. If any of the others try to use it instead of their own skills, they have to up both Int and Dex to accomplish the same thing.
I concur... but with the 1rst level spell (arcane armament?) you can add 1d6 to your crossbow, so leaving it behind hurts.... An alternative is to mostly use spells that don't rely on int for effectiveness, and hurt things with your crossbow and better dex.
 

Vael

Adventurer
I'm reasonably happy with the current Artificer, though I'd like to play one to be sure. Some general tweaks I'd make:

1. I'd be tempted to separate all the pets from their subclasses, or make them optional and give the Artificer a second choice. Call it a Bonded Item, and it can be a Homunculus, Iron Defender, an Intelligent Magical Item, etc. (Maybe only Artillerists can choose the Turret, and Archivists get the extra choice of their item)

2. Rather than creating all your infusions by touch after a long rest, I'd make it a 10 minute ritual that the Artificer can do during the day.

3. Maybe when learning the Infusion that allows you to mimic magic items, allow the Artificer to learn two per pick?

I'm more interested in making the Artificer more adaptable during the day. I like that they can swap out their Cantrips, I'd like more of that throughout the class.
 

tglassy

Adventurer
I'd never count on getting 6 people in a blast every round.
You also don’t count on hitting your opponent every round, we’re looking at max potential. If you only have 1 enemy, then the flamethrower isn’t the best use of your turret. But if you have 2, the damage equals the ballista, just spread out, and if there are more than 2, then you are doing more damage than the ballista can, up to 6 enemies per ballista.
 

Kobold Avenger

Adventurer
You also don’t count on hitting your opponent every round, we’re looking at max potential. If you only have 1 enemy, then the flamethrower isn’t the best use of your turret. But if you have 2, the damage equals the ballista, just spread out, and if there are more than 2, then you are doing more damage than the ballista can, up to 6 enemies per ballista.
Assuming the flamethrower will hit 6 targets, is like assuming that both (or even 1) of the ballistas will score critical hits. It's not likely to happen.
 

tglassy

Adventurer
Assuming the flamethrower will hit 6 targets, is like assuming that both (or even 1) of the ballistas will score critical hits. It's not likely to happen.
The point is it CAN hit 6 targets, and as my post said, even if it's only hitting 3, it's doing more damage than the Ballista can. And because it's a save, and not an attack roll, even for those who save, they still take half damage, so some damage is done every turn.

I don't understand why people are arguing with me because I'm pointing out that the Turret can hit 6 targets. Nobody says "Yeah, but the odds of hitting a lot of people with fireball are so small, it doesn't even matter." Fireball can hit a 20 ft sphere, so they can hit lots of targets. it doesn't matter how many they can hit, it matters they can hit a lot of them. The turrets do 1d8 damage to up to six people for each turret. They don't need an upgrade. They're an AOE attack. It doesn't matter that "You'll never get six people lined up". It matters that it can hit six squares at once. The more people are there, the more it can hit, up to six people. AOE attacks are a thing in DND and most people think they're pretty good.

Sometimes I feel that people argue with me just to argue.
 

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