Associated classes ...

[Jeff Wilder]

I'm pretty sure I get how "associated classes" are supposed to work. When you give a monster class levels, if the class is in an area the monster's already strong in, the class levels are associated, and count 1-for-1 toward CR. If, on the other hand, the class levels are for something at cross-purposes to the monster's game function -- sorcerer levels on a fire giant, for example -- the class is non-associated, and class levels-to-CR bump is at 2-for-1 (up to a limit based on HD).

I created a hill giant cleric 5. IMO, and I'm a pretty good judge of these things, he's not powerful enough to be CR 12 (hill giants are CR 7, plus cleric 5). On the other hand, also IMO, he's too powerful for CR 12 as a hill giant 10. To make things more muddled, I think there are good reasons going both ways for cleric as an associated class.

Of course I can make my own judgments, and I will, but I'd also like to get some independent validation, as well as some starting points. My campaign is heading for a place shortly such that I'll need to make lots of these decisions.

I know that in the later Monster Manuals, the entries spell out associated and non-associated classes, but does anybody know if things are spelled out more clearly for earlier creatures in any WotC sourcebook?

 

[Runestar]

To cut a long story short, this is nothing more than a guideline, and was never meant to be adhered to religiously, if at all.

For cleric, you need to watch out for 1 spell - divine power. Prior to cleric7, lvs in cleric can safely be treated as non-associated, since they don't add much beyond 2 domain powers (can be potent if chosen carefully, but probably nothing that will break the game), a few buffs here and there such as divine favour and bull's strength, and heavy armour proficiency. But overall, nothing that can compare to the sheer might of racial HD in copious amounts.

Past cleric7, you need to monitor the situation a little more closely, since divine power breaks this trend by effectively giving the hill giant full bab for both its class lvs and racial HD.

The problem here is that the class guidelines seem to be accurate only for a few class lvs, and break down past a certain number (apparently 5 or so).

For a hill giant cleric10, you may need to settle for something in between. It appears statistically superior to a storm giant, and perhaps a compromise of say, cr14? (between 12 and 17). There are really no hard and fast rules, the only reliable marker is to playtest it beforehand to get a rough idea of how strong it can be.

 

[Shin Okada]

As you have already mentioned, the adjudication of CR is ultimately up to each DM.

But as a DM, I usually treat cleric and similar divine spellcaster classes with average BAB as associated class for melee type monsters like giants, especially when the class gives good fort and will saves. Cleric class is better than mage classes for melee brutes (especially when they use armor and weapons).

Also, I usually give Practiced Spellcaster feat to such monsters. So, in that case, the said Hill Giant/Cleric 5 will have caster level of 9. So he can cast Divine Favor, Dispel Magic and such with CL9. He also has elite ability array. So he can be strong enough as a CR 12 monster I guess.

Usually, I also give gears as a NPC. But I do not use ECL and instead use CR for determining the total value of gears. It seems that later 3.5e supplements tend to be using this way.