Balance Skill Question...

[Lord Zardoz]

In a recent session, I came up with a truly bizzare combat tactic using Balance. However, I would like to know how others on this board would adjudicate the following trick.

Lets say a character with a good number of ranks in Jump and Balance decides that they want to jump onto and then remain standing on another, larger creature. Lets say, a Human Rogue wanting to fight an Ogre while standing on its shoulders. Or a Monk wanting to stand on the back of a Dragon while attacking it.

How would you adjudicate the process of acheiving this state of affairs? What benefits / penalties would this bestow upon the attacker? On the Defender?

Other then the attacker suffering an AoO initially, and getting the High Ground bonus to his attack rolls, I could not work out much that was concrete. Setting the Jump DC is no problem, but what would the Balance DC be for this absurd (but highly amusing) trick?

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[Destil]

In a recent session, I came up with a truly bizzare combat tactic using Balance. However, I would like to know how others on this board would adjudicate the following trick.

Lets say a character with a good number of ranks in Jump and Balance decides that they want to jump onto and then remain standing on another, larger creature. Lets say, a Human Rogue wanting to fight an Ogre while standing on its shoulders. Or a Monk wanting to stand on the back of a Dragon while attacking it.

How would you adjudicate the process of acheiving this state of affairs? What benefits / penalties would this bestow upon the attacker? On the Defender?

Other then the attacker suffering an AoO initially, and getting the High Ground bonus to his attack rolls, I could not work out much that was concrete. Setting the Jump DC is no problem, but what would the Balance DC be for this absurd (but highly amusing) trick?

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I think I'd use an opposed balance roll with an attack roll as a free action on the defenders part every round, and give the 'defender' a +10 circumstance bonus, if they win the attacker falls, takes an AoO and falls prone unless they make a reflex save or tumble check, DC 15+ the ammount they lost the opposed roll by. However, rather than grant a +1 to hit bonus, I think I'd deny the defender their dex bonus to AC, and give the attacker a -2 to -6 penelity to hit. The visual of a rogue leaping up onto a dragon's back where it can't get at him easily and draving his sword into a vital spot is quite cool, IMHO (Though I like an over the top, almost anime style in my games).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, call it a 2"-6" surface - DC 15; angled, +5 DC.

I'd also impose a +10 DC (minimum) if the creature isn't standing still - so, DC 30 Balance check at least.

The creature gets a +2 on attack rolls, and if he deals damage, the character has to make another Balance check.

For attacking, I'd require the character to make an untrained Ride check, DC 10, with a -5 penalty for riding bareback, at the start of the round. If that succeeded, I'd require a Balance check with each attack; If the Ride check failed, that character is unable to attack that round.

I would, however, deny the creature its Dex bonus.

-Hyp.

 

[magnas_veritas]

Well, call it a 2"-6" surface - DC 15; angled, +5 DC.

I'd also impose a +10 DC (minimum) if the creature isn't standing still - so, DC 30 Balance check at least.

The creature gets a +2 on attack rolls, and if he deals damage, the character has to make another Balance check.

For attacking, I'd require the character to make an untrained Ride check, DC 10, with a -5 penalty for riding bareback, at the start of the round. If that succeeded, I'd require a Balance check with each attack; If the Ride check failed, that character is unable to attack that round.

I would, however, deny the creature its Dex bonus.

Hrm. I don't like the idea of the jumpee getting a bonus to attack the jumper. You swing or thrust fairly awkwardly, so the jumpee should probably have an initial attack penalty.

I also don't think they need to make a Ride check. Ride is inherently about moving around on a semi-willing mount, and doing stuff with them. I see no relation between hopping on your nifty charger and jumping on top of a rock troll and shooting it with your bow or stabbing it in the eye.

How about:

Jumper makes an appropriate-DC Jump check to hop onto the target.

Jumper makes a touch attack against the target. If the jumper fails, they jump over the target and wind up in an appropriate place.

If they succeed, jumper makes a Balance-DC 30 check to stay on the target. If they fail, they fall prone in the target's square.

If they succeed, they get the Higher Ground bonus to attack, in addition to removing the target's Dex bonus to AC. The target gets a -4 penalty to melee attacks against the jumper.

However, the target gets a +4 bonus to touch attacks to initiate a grapple, since you're perched on their shoulder/back, and thus have constrained movement.

This way, the agile little guy can jump on the thing's back and jab it for all he's worth, and then if he's not careful, he'll be grabbed and thrown across the room.

Thoughts?

Brad

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hrm. I don't like the idea of the jumpee getting a bonus to attack the jumper. You swing or thrust fairly awkwardly, so the jumpee should probably have an initial attack penalty.

That came directly from the text of the Balance skill. You attack someone who's balancing, you get a +2 bonus. If they have less than 5 ranks in Balance, they don't get their Dex bonus either.

You can apply a penalty as well, if you want, but they should still get their bonus for attacking someone who is balancing

I also don't think they need to make a Ride check. Ride is inherently about moving around on a semi-willing mount, and doing stuff with them. I see no relation between hopping on your nifty charger and jumping on top of a rock troll and shooting it with your bow or stabbing it in the eye.

Yup - but if you want to make an attack while mounted on a warhorse that is also attacking in the same round, you need to make a DC 10 Ride check. And the warhorse is cooperating!

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Some good suggestions here...

Yup - but if you want to make an attack while mounted on a warhorse that is also attacking in the same round, you need to make a DC 10 Ride check. And the warhorse is cooperating!

-Hyp.

Then again, your not attacking the horse, are you? But it may be a good guideline if you want to attack someone other then your "Unwilling" mount.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on this subject...

Keep in mind that all of this is dependent upon the creature being able to plausibly carry the creature balancing on it. A Human doing this to an Elf or Half Orc, for example, would just start a typical grapple procedure.

I like the idea of an opposed roll to resolve the action. I also like the idea of applying the listed modifiers to the Balance Skill. There are two parts to the maneuver, however. Jumping and landing on the opponent, and then staying on him.

For the Jump Check, the DC should be based on how high you need to jump (getting on an Ogres shoulders is easy. A dragon's back is a bit higher up). Lets call it DC 10 + 4 per size category for now.

As for the Balance, it is probably a variant of a grapple check. However, I think it ought to be easier the larger a creature is. Lets say a Balance check opposed by the defenders Escape Artist check modified by the same penalty as the size inflicts to AC. The Defender gets an automatic +10 bonus. If the Attacker / Balancer is hit in combat and takes damage, we can use the same mechanic as is used for Climb Checks. While balancing on the Target, we can limit the attacker to a single attack, saying that it is a move equivalent action to stay 'mounted'. Or we can force the balance check to be made in advance of every attack roll.

This means that once 'mounted', you stay mounted until you either fall off from attacking it, or until the monster knocks you off.

As for the benefits of this insane stunt...

Denying the Dex bonus is certantly an option, but then the only benefit for the Maneuver is to pull off Sneak attacks. Also, the larger creatures that beg for this sort of grand standing typically have either a lousy or negative Dex anyway. Besides, having a human stand on an Ogres head and shoulders is one thing, having him stand on a Dragon is quite another.

I think that I would first inflict a -4 penalty for the defender to strike his assalant. The Defender would also be considered Flanked by any other creature attacking it.

The Attacker would get 1/2 cover against anyone trying to attack him from below. I would also give him a +4 to hit.

Funny, but I now find myself wondering what the Climb DC is for an Angry Cloud Giant?

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