D&D General Best AC Formula for a Bladesinger?

[Silam]

Thanks all for the great discussion!

Other options include species like Lizardfolk, Thri-Kreen, or Autognomes with natural armour that will not require Mage Armour spell slots to have a base of 13 + Dex modifier.

Tortle seems really strong. Hard to top 17 base AC with no required ability score investment. Gets you to 22 AC very easily, just by bumping your Int, which you would want to do anyway.

You’re absolutely right, I had forgotten about these species. I guess my bigoted biases due to having first been exposed to Bladesingers in 2e are flaring up … when my pointy ears hear Bladesinger I automatically assume Elf.

Bracers of Defense, ring or protection etc.

Those are applicable to all builds since they are a bonus, not an AC formula. But they can bump the total higher, sure.

This stat boost to AC only works when the Bladesinger is using their Bladesong ability and only for a limited number of uses equal to your PB.

It is Int mod / day (+1 more time when using Arcane Recovery) in the latest revisions, but your point remains that it’s a limited resource.

4. 13 Intelligence and Headband of Intellect: You could do this with any other class as your "main class" pick up Wizard 3 (or 4) for the extra 4 points of AC in Bladeong. IT is a costly attunement though.

I was considering exactly this for a theoretical Barbsinger build the other day… you could, for example, with point buy 27 have:

Str 13
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 9
Cha 8

So that gives you a fairly respectable 16 AC at all times, and 17 AC with BS active. Not super impressive at first, but if/when the Headband of Intellect materializes, you can then get 20 AC with BS (assuming no further stat bumps by the time you got that item).

I’ll be frank, this is not awesome… but if you were planning not to be a nearly full Bladesinger, then you could delay getting started on Wiz/BS until you do get the Headband. Until then, maybe you are an EK or whatever else.

Infernal Pact Feat at level 1 then Infernal Bulwark at level 4, increase Constitution.

Oh yeah, there is that DDB Drop feat too. I wonder if they’ll come up with an official version of that eventually…

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The Wisdom/Monk route, on the other hand, is interesting in the sense that the Monk class features synergize very well with the BS, and if we get the WotMA subclass in Arcana Unleashed (as expected) it might end up being a match made in heaven. But going from 3 to 4 important stats is really rough. You basically have to dump Con and be very squishy. And you probably need to prioritize Dex since the Bladesong’s ability to use Int for att/dmg bonuses applies only to weapons, not to Flurry of Blows. This in turn means you’re going all in on melee and self-buffing while avoiding Save and attack roll spells, since your Int may not be your highest stat. Overall, it’s a tough balancing act.

In a sense, 13 Str + highest possible Dex/Con/Int is less costly than highest possible Dex/Con/Int/Wis!

Thoughts on any of the above?

Being 2 points lower does not equal suck.

I like the monk multiclass.

Standard array allows for easy
Str 8
dex 16
con 12
int 16
wis 13
con 12

Ideally you stay at monk 1 and take warcaster at level 5 raising wisdom to 14.

But maybe barbarian is even better.

Barbarian gives weapon masteries. Vex on a rapier is nice. You can even go two weapon fighting and rage.

Your stats ideally look like this:

Str 13
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8

You start as level 1 barbarian for con save proficiency. Usually you attack with int. But you might enter rage and then you can also attack with Str, after you raised Str to 14 with mage slayer feat, which helps your wisdom saves you dumped when chosing barbarian first. Barbarian also upped your HP at level 1.

You should also start with sage background, true strike cantrip and the shield spell. The second cantrip should fit to your species choice. Maybe being a gnome is ideal as it also shores up your mental defenses. With barbarian 2, you also have advantage on reflex saves, which might be worth some consideration.

 

[Silam]

I like the monk multiclass.

Same. Flavorwise it’s great. Even mechanically it’s quite good. The Martial Arts unarmed attack as a BA is better than TWF since it has stat mod to damage out of the box, without needing to burn a Fighting Style on it. With Flurry of Blows (if you go beyond 1st level) it’s a no contest, hands down way better than TWF (though of course Focus Points are a limited resource). And then the rest of the Monk abilities are pretty much all great too.

The big rub of a Monk/BS is really the MADness…

Standard array allows for easy
Str 8
dex 16
con 12
int 16
wis 13
con 12

You can do that, but with Wis 13, your unarmored defense AC is just 11 + Dex… you probably should burn a slot on Mage Armor at that point. Unarmored Defense might still serve as a backup when your MA gets dispelled, or if you casted it more than 8 hours ago, or if you’re ambushed at night… but that’s pretty fringe. So you would be getting Monk mostly for the rest of the abilities, not for the UD.

Ideally you stay at monk 1 and take warcaster at level 5 raising wisdom to 14.

But maybe barbarian is even better.

Barbarian gives weapon masteries. Vex on a rapier is nice. You can even go two weapon fighting and rage.

Your stats ideally look like this:

Str 13
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8

You start as level 1 barbarian for con save proficiency. Usually you attack with int. But you might enter rage and then you can also attack with Str, after you raised Str to 14 with mage slayer feat, which helps your wisdom saves you dumped when chosing barbarian first. Barbarian also upped your HP at level 1.

You should also start with sage background, true strike cantrip and the shield spell. The second cantrip should fit to your species choice. Maybe being a gnome is ideal as it also shores up your mental defenses. With barbarian 2, you also have advantage on reflex saves, which might be worth some consideration.

Yeah, although at first it seemed crazy since the Barb’s (apparent) main ability (Rage) does not allow spellcasting nor concentration… the Barbsinger is growing on me latealy, since Con is a really good stat to have…

For a Barbsinger on a point buy budget, it is even conceivable to dump Dex and replace it with Con, while keeping Int high. 13/13/16/16/9/8 or something like that.

 

[Zardnaar]

Thanks all for the great discussion!




You’re absolutely right, I had forgotten about these species. I guess my bigoted biases due to having first been exposed to Bladesingers in 2e are flaring up … when my pointy ears hear Bladesinger I automatically assume Elf.



Those are applicable to all builds since they are a bonus, not an AC formula. But they can bump the total higher, sure.



It is Int mod / day (+1 more time when using Arcane Recovery) in the latest revisions, but your point remains that it’s a limited resource.



I was considering exactly this for a theoretical Barbsinger build the other day… you could, for example, with point buy 27 have:

Str 13
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 9
Cha 8

So that gives you a fairly respectable 16 AC at all times, and 17 AC with BS active. Not super impressive at first, but if/when the Headband of Intellect materializes, you can then get 20 AC with BS (assuming no further stat bumps by the time you got that item).

I’ll be frank, this is not awesome… but if you were planning not to be a nearly full Bladesinger, then you could delay getting started on Wiz/BS until you do get the Headband. Until then, maybe you are an EK or whatever else.



Oh yeah, there is that DDB Drop feat too. I wonder if they’ll come up with an official version of that eventually…

Bladesingers base AC (if you know what youre doing) is generally 16-17 plus bladesong plus shield if its relevant.

Two biggest mistakes I see in bladesingers is pumping AC through the roof and being allergic to all damage (burning spell slots on shield mostly vs irrelevant damage).

Basically you create a dancing fool.

Second biggest mistake is burning all your spells slots up on scorching ray once CME comes online. Its mostly if its a 5MWD beyond that its kinda idiotic.

3rd mistake is thinking youre a good gish. You're not unless CME is running. By those levels you might get outclassed by clerics and druids anyway in general. War clerics and some druid builds in particular.

Unless youre playing BG3 then its fantastic due to guaranteed equipment drops.

 

[Silam]

Bladesingers base AC (if you know what youre doing) is generally 16-17 plus bladesong plus shield if its relevant.

Two biggest mistakes I see in bladesingers is pumping AC through the roof and being allergic to all damage (burning spell slots on shield mostly vs irrelevant damage).

Basically you create a dancing fool.

Second biggest mistake is burning all your spells slots up on scorching ray once CME comes online. Its mostly if its a 5MWD beyond that its kinda idiotic.

3rd mistake is thinking youre a good gish. You're not unless CME is running. By those levels you might get outclassed by clerics and druids anyway in general. War clerics and some druid builds in particular.

Unless youre playing BG3 then its fantastic due to guaranteed equipment drops.

That’s interesting.

So what is your take on how to play a BS effectively, if the above are common mistakes? Would you play it as a controller with better defense?

 

[Zardnaar]

That’s interesting.

So what is your take on how to play a BS effectively, if the above are common mistakes? Would you play it as a controller with better defense?

Yeah controller with better defense/concentration is the better play IMHO. CME is the only thing basically even allowing you pretend to be a decent gish.

In a 5MWD it really doesn't matter even with CME. You can roll your face on your character sheet you've already won.

I've only seen them in action up to level 10-12. One of the playtests was side by side with a war cleric and it got clowned by the war cleric on and the war cleric beat it in damage. Even in a 5MWD it would have still lost and the cleric had way more gas left in the tank.

DM helping out could make a difference. By that I mean magic items. You pretty much have to cherry pick the best ones. Mostly a vicious rapier or whatever, cloak of displacement and bracers of defense or something similar.

Proficinecy in arcana skill, tinkers tools and possibly the weapon tools and a DM that doesn't say no 100% of the time would be required.

 

[ECMO3]

Same. Flavorwise it’s great. Even mechanically it’s quite good. The Martial Arts unarmed attack as a BA is better than TWF since it has stat mod to damage out of the box, without needing to burn a Fighting Style on it. With Flurry of Blows (if you go beyond 1st level) it’s a no contest, hands down way better than TWF (though of course Focus Points are a limited resource). And then the rest of the Monk abilities are pretty much all great too.

I would disagree that it is "good" unless you roll really well and can start with three scores of 16+ and if you do that it is really the abilities carrying the PC, not the class.

The problem with martial arts and FOB is they conflict with Bladesong, this makes it really tough to get the most out of those. There is a niche for this, if you really want to build a tank, but what you will be using most as a bonus action is Patient Defense on your next turn after Bladesong, and Deflect attacks when you can't shield. That boosts your defense a lot, the issue is though this is 3 levels of Monk and that is a lot of spell slots to give up.

If you are 3 levels in, I think Dance Bard makes a lot more sense for a martial arts type character because you do not lose spell slots. False Life with your highest level slot with a full array of defensive spells and at high levels Song of Defense with full slots probably does more for you than what 3 levels of Monk brings to the table.

 

[ECMO3]

3rd mistake is thinking youre a good gish. You're not unless CME is running. By those levels you might get outclassed by clerics and druids anyway in general. War clerics and some druid builds in particular.

Unless youre playing BG3 then its fantastic due to guaranteed equipment drops.

Bladesinger is a superb Gish/tank if you build to that and use your spell slots for that.

It is debatable whether it is smart play for a 9th level Bladesinger to wake up in the morning and immediately cast False Life at 5th level instead of saving that slot for Hold Monster or Wall of Force or Synaptic Static later in the day. However the character is a superb Gish if you do this and then when you lose those 29 or so temp hit points cast another false life at 4th level, etc, etc, etc. When you consider this and Absorb Elements you are WAY more durable than Clerics or Druids, with more effective hit points, a much higher AC and better damage output. In fact you are more durable in most situations than Fighter, Paladin and Ranger builds too. Take a single level in Rogue or Fighter or Ranger to pick up weapon masteries and either sneak attack or a fighting style or Favored enemy without losing a caster level and you are also near the top tier in tier in terms of weapon damage/use, especially with Green Flame Blade when you have clumped up enemies.

I have found CME to be very situational and not particularly effective on a Bladesinger, but PEG, Contingency, False Life, Mirror Image, Elminster's Elusion, Tasha's Guise, Yolanda's presence, Spellfire storm, Spellfire Flare, THL and Fear are all awesome on a Bladesinger.

Some other random bits that work really well integrated on a Bladesinger:
1. Sanctuary from a Cleric Origin feat
2. Wrathful Smite from Shadow Touched
3. Tasha's Mind Whip with a Warcaster AOO
4. Aasimar to get resistance to radiant and necrotic, plus a damage boost. Combined with Absorb Elements this gives you resistance to 7 of 13 damage types, including those most commonly used with save for half, add your AC and this makes those d6 hit dice pretty formidable. Celestial Revelation is also a pretty big damage boost, but it is hard to pull off because it is a Bonus action and conflicts with Bladesong. When you do pull it off though it is nice.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah controller with better defense/concentration is the better play IMHO. CME is the only thing basically even allowing you pretend to be a decent gish.

In Teir 1 Truestrike beats what other weapon users have because you can choose radiant damage. The ability to switch from PBS to Radiant is significant in tier 1 because of Shadows, Zombies and swarms that are common enemies in this tier.

Tier 2 extra attack with Green Flame Blade or Swordburst is pretty darn formidable. With 2 enemies next to each other a green flame blade extra attack with a Longsword at level 6-10 is doing 3d8+2xIntelligence to one enemy and 1d8+Intelligence to a second enemy. SwordBurst + attack is doing 2d6 to everyone within 5 feet that fails the save and another 1d8+Intelligence to someone.

If you manage to get martial weapons, for range you also have Firebolt+Pistol doing 3d10+Intelligence at range and since a pistol is light if you have a bonus action available you can throw a hand axe or shoot a hand crossbow for another 1d6.

That is nothing to sneeze at in tier 2, and that is without doing anything to boost damage further and it scales again at level 11 and 17.

There is certainly an argument that a traditional Wizard controller with better defense is a better and more powerful way to play the subclass, but a Gish/weapon user from this subclass is absolutely viable and pretty darn powerful in its own right.

 

[Zardnaar]

In Teir 1 Truestrike beats what other weapon users have because you can choose radiant damage. The ability to switch from PBS to Radiant is significant in tier 1 because of Shadows, Zombies and swarms that are common enemies in this tier.

Tier 2 extra attack with Green Flame Blade or Swordburst is pretty darn formidable. With 2 enemies next to each other a green flame blade extra attack with a Longsword at level 6-10 is doing 3d8+2xIntelligence to one enemy and 1d8+Intelligence to a second enemy. SwordBurst + attack is doing 2d6 to everyone within 5 feet that fails the save and another 1d8+Intelligence to someone.

For Range you also have Firebolt+Pistol doing 3d10+Intelligence at range and since a pistol is light if you have a bonus action available you can throw a hand axe or shoot a hand crossbow for another 1d6.

That is nothing to sneeze at in tier 2, and that is without doing anything to boost damage further and it scales again at level 11 and 17.

Nothing to argue against there. You play to higher levels than everyone else here it seems.

Cloak of Displacement is also mvp even if it doesn't technically boost AC.