D&D General Best AC Formula for a Bladesinger?

[Silam]

I would disagree that it is "good" unless you roll really well and can start with three scores of 16+ and if you do that it is really the abilities carrying the PC, not the class.

We are on the same page that a Monk/BS is incredibly MAD.

As for the assertion that it is "the abilities carrying the PC, not the class" for a high stats rolls Monk/BS, I don’t know if I agree. What I mean is that 5e in general (and certainly with default point buy) heavily incentivizes SAD builds, but if you do wander off the beaten path and somehow land some high stats rolls, then it’s not necessarily the case that a traditional SAD build performs better than a MAD build. Think of it this way: if your rolls gave you not just 2 or 3 good stats (as point buy might) but instead 4 or 5 great stats, then if you play a single-classed Wizard who mostly needs just Int and as a nice-to-have benefits from Dex/Con, you’re not really taking advantage of those great stats (besides an occasional better save mod). But if your build gives you AC from 3 different stats and HPs from a 4th stat, then yeah, the MAD build might actually "grow into" the high stats roll more effectively than the traditional SAD build.

The problem with martial arts and FOB is they conflict with Bladesong, this makes it really tough to get the most out of those.

Indeed, they partially conflict insofar as the BS grants Int to att/dmg only for weapon attacks. That is fine for Monk weapons, but those are only applicable to attacks made with the Attack Action, whereas attacks made with the BA (Martial Arts, FoB) must be unarmed, which in turn limits them to Dex or Str.

As such, my thinking is that stats for a Monk/BS should prioritize Dex above all. You still need at least Wis 16 (so that the UD’s AC formula matches Mage Armor) and of course more is better. But between Dex and Int, you are faced with a difficult choice… Dex drives the att/dmg of your unarmed strikes & Finesse/Monk weapons, the damage reduction of Deflect Attack, and some other stuff (e.g., Grapple), while Int drives the att/dmg of one-handed weapons during BS, your spell attack rolls and spell save DCs.

Both Dex and Int also drive AC, though Dex is always on while BS is a limited number of times per day so a bit inferior.

If you went the Controller-with-better-defense route, as @Zardnaar advocates, you would need to lean into Int for the spell save DCs, and that would mean MA/FoB suffers. For this Controller strategy I would think Monk is a fairly bad choice. Focusing on higher spell slots is probably better.

But if you went the gish/frontline route, it is entirely reaonable to tailor your spell prep towards buffs that don’t depend on Int, and to benefit from having more attacks. CME with FoB can be better than CME with TWF. CME cares little for which stat you hit with. Similarly, False Life, Haste, Mirror Image, Shield and many other buffs also work regardless of Int.

There is a niche for this, if you really want to build a tank, but what you will be using most as a bonus action is Patient Defense on your next turn after Bladesong, and Deflect attacks when you can't shield. That boosts your defense a lot, the issue is though this is 3 levels of Monk and that is a lot of spell slots to give up.

Yeah, multi-classing is always quite taxing in 5e, so I can’t argue there.

If you are 3 levels in, I think Dance Bard makes a lot more sense for a martial arts type character because you do not lose spell slots.

Although I think Charisma is a worse stat than either Wis or Con to get MAD about, I’m not against it altogether. If pursuing the strategy of Cha to AC without losing slots is on the agenda, I personally would prefer leaning towards the Draco Sorc than the Dance Bard, as I think MM is superior than whatever the Bard brings to the table... but while exploring that path, it seems fairly pertinent at that point to ditch the BS altogether and do a Draco Sorc / Valor Bard, and go all in on Cha.

False Life with your highest level slot with a full array of defensive spells and at high levels Song of Defense with full slots probably does more for you than what 3 levels of Monk brings to the table.

I’m not a fan of Song of Defense… it seems so expensive. If you’re at the end of the rope, on your last few HPs, and Shield does not apply (i.e., it’s a crit, or a save) then sure, SoD might be your only option left… but slot-for-slot, many other options could give you more HP or THP (though likely not as a Reaction)… in terms of reducing damage via a Reaction, I would prefer taking a chance on Backlash (from FRHoF, same book as the latest BS revision) to at least damage the attacker a bit also.

Anyway, don’t take my verbosity as a sign of disagreement. I think there is a lot we agree on. We may be, as they say, in violent agreement …

 

[ECMO3]

Indeed, they partially conflict insofar as the BS grants Int to att/dmg only for weapon attacks.

No I meant they conflict because they both use a bonus action. The first round of combat is when FOB is most effective, especially when using it for grappling and it is when Bladesong is most effective.

But if you went the gish/frontline route, it is entirely reaonable to tailor your spell prep towards buffs that don’t depend on Int, and to benefit from having more attacks. CME with FoB can be better than CME with TWF. CME cares little for which stat you hit with. Similarly, False Life, Haste, Mirror Image, Shield and many other buffs also work regardless of Int.

You would go that route if taking 3 levels in Monk, but you would still be lacking slots and those slots translate to defense. For example if you compare an 8/3 Bladesinger/Monk vs a 11 Bladesinger, the former is down one 4th, two 5th and one 6th level slot. Even if you just use those for False Life that is 116 Temp hit points per day the Monk is "missing". Additionally though you also don't have a Contingency available, which is usually used to cover a defensive collapse and you get back fewer slots with Arcane Recovery.

You do have FOB and Patient Defense and deflect attacks, so you are getting some things to counter it, but you will miss those spell slots I think.

I’m not a fan of Song of Defense… it seems so expensive.

It is expensive, that is why you can't afford to have fewer slots to "spend" on it.

Backlash is an option, but you have to prepare it and on average you will take more damage than you would with Song of Defense from the same slot.

Anyway, don’t take my verbosity as a sign of disagreement. I think there is a lot we agree on. We may be, as they say, in violent agreement …

Likewise ...

 

[Zardnaar]

We are on the same page that a Monk/BS is incredibly MAD.

As for the assertion that it is "the abilities carrying the PC, not the class" for a high stats rolls Monk/BS, I don’t know if I agree. What I mean is that 5e in general (and certainly with default point buy) heavily incentivizes SAD builds, but if you do wander off the beaten path and somehow land some high stats rolls, then it’s not necessarily the case that a traditional SAD build performs better than a MAD build. Think of it this way: if your rolls gave you not just 2 or 3 good stats (as point buy might) but instead 4 or 5 great stats, then if you play a single-classed Wizard who mostly needs just Int and as a nice-to-have benefits from Dex/Con, you’re not really taking advantage of those great stats (besides an occasional better save mod). But if your build gives you AC from 3 different stats and HPs from a 4th stat, then yeah, the MAD build might actually "grow into" the high stats roll more effectively than the traditional SAD build.



Indeed, they partially conflict insofar as the BS grants Int to att/dmg only for weapon attacks. That is fine for Monk weapons, but those are only applicable to attacks made with the Attack Action, whereas attacks made with the BA (Martial Arts, FoB) must be unarmed, which in turn limits them to Dex or Str.

As such, my thinking is that stats for a Monk/BS should prioritize Dex above all. You still need at least Wis 16 (so that the UD’s AC formula matches Mage Armor) and of course more is better. But between Dex and Int, you are faced with a difficult choice… Dex drives the att/dmg of your unarmed strikes & Finesse/Monk weapons, the damage reduction of Deflect Attack, and some other stuff (e.g., Grapple), while Int drives the att/dmg of one-handed weapons during BS, your spell attack rolls and spell save DCs.

Both Dex and Int also drive AC, though Dex is always on while BS is a limited number of times per day so a bit inferior.

If you went the Controller-with-better-defense route, as @Zardnaar advocates, you would need to lean into Int for the spell save DCs, and that would mean MA/FoB suffers. For this Controller strategy I would think Monk is a fairly bad choice. Focusing on higher spell slots is probably better.

But if you went the gish/frontline route, it is entirely reaonable to tailor your spell prep towards buffs that don’t depend on Int, and to benefit from having more attacks. CME with FoB can be better than CME with TWF. CME cares little for which stat you hit with. Similarly, False Life, Haste, Mirror Image, Shield and many other buffs also work regardless of Int.



Yeah, multi-classing is always quite taxing in 5e, so I can’t argue there.



Although I think Charisma is a worse stat than either Wis or Con to get MAD about, I’m not against it altogether. If pursuing the strategy of Cha to AC without losing slots is on the agenda, I personally would prefer leaning towards the Draco Sorc than the Dance Bard, as I think MM is superior than whatever the Bard brings to the table... but while exploring that path, it seems fairly pertinent at that point to ditch the BS altogether and do a Draco Sorc / Valor Bard, and go all in on Cha.


I’m not a fan of Song of Defense… it seems so expensive. If you’re at the end of the rope, on your last few HPs, and Shield does not apply (i.e., it’s a crit, or a save) then sure, SoD might be your only option left… but slot-for-slot, many other options could give you more HP or THP (though likely not as a Reaction)… in terms of reducing damage via a Reaction, I would prefer taking a chance on Backlash (from FRHoF, same book as the latest BS revision) to at least damage the attacker a bit also.

Anyway, don’t take my verbosity as a sign of disagreement. I think there is a lot we agree on. We may be, as they say, in violent agreement …

I advocated for that as I haven't seen any Bladesinger build in action that really does much damage without CME or generous DM (eg vicious rapier and a dagger).

Ive seen one using CME and kept it up. Ran out of spells slots fast and was weaker than a war cleric while burning those spell slots.

Elemental resistances are forming later on 23 fights were fine 1 it was relevant but even so.

Harder to break its concentration of war cleric.

Not a fan of the dancing fool bladesinger. Dancing controller however thats different.

 

[Silam]

No I meant they conflict because they both use a bonus action.

Got it. Yeah, that too.

You would go that route if taking 3 levels in Monk, but you would still be lacking slots and those slots translate to defense. For example if you compare an 8/3 Bladesinger/Monk vs a 11 Bladesinger, the former is down one 4th, two 5th and one 6th level slot. Even if you just use those for False Life that is 116 Temp hit points per day the Monk is "missing". Additionally though you also don't have a Contingency available, which is usually used to cover a defensive collapse and you get back fewer slots with Arcane Recovery.

You do have FOB and Patient Defense and deflect attacks, so you are getting some things to counter it, but you will miss those spell slots I think.

Higher spell prep and spell slots are always better than lower ones, in a vacuum. That’s for sure. Though I think a gish aimed at being a frontline combatant (rather than a controller with better def) gets diminishing returns from higher spell prep. Most of the interesting gishy spells are levels 1-3, with rare gems at levels 4-5, and then it’s almost empty. You still definitely benefit from upcasting, and from a pure power optimization standpoint that is absolutely legit. But from a gameplay standpoint, if you wish to espouse the aesthetics (i.e., constraints) of a gish, then I think you get more mileage from evenly split builds that have lower level slots. And those "gameplay-optimizing" builds can be quite potent on their own, even if they might not match the absolute power of a 9th level CME, 9th level False Life, or simply Foresight.

For example, Fighter 1 or 2 + Bladesinger 19 or 18 might be pretty much optimal. 9th level spells, Action Surge, what else can you hope for?

But something we see less commonly on theorycraft threads, like EK7/BS13, or EK9/BS11, might be more interesting. You could have nearly as much spellcasting power (7th level prep, 8th level slot with the former, 6th/7th with the latter) while also getting 2 cantrips per AA, stronger Second Winds and other Fighter goodies. Is it more powerful? Depends, in a 5MWD campaign, I guess not. In a campaign with many encounters per day, maybe.

Translating these ideas back to the Monk… if you did something like Monk 10 / BS 10, or Monk 10 / BS 8 / Fighter 2, you might have something quite interesting gameplay-wise. 3 attacks per FoB (with plenty of Focus Points to fuel it), Patient Defense that grants you 2d8 THP, but also CME, Extra Attack with cantrip, even Nick if you swing that way. That could add up to 6 attacks per round, on par with an EK 20 (who also gets no more than 4th level slots). With the Monk WotMA subclass coming in Arcana Unleashed in the Fall this type of Monky gish build could become super interesting (i.e., they might be able to get 6th or even 7th level slots thanks to WotMA’s 1/3rd spellcasting). Not necessarily the most powerful, of course, but I suspect not too shabby either (MADness aside).

 

[Zardnaar]

EK 9/BS 11 might not be theory craft except final form.

Its playable from lvl 1 at least.

Some throrycraft builds are essentially unplayable or weak until they come togather at lvl 12 or whatever.

 

[ECMO3]

Got it. Yeah, that too.



Higher spell prep and spell slots are always better than lower ones, in a vacuum. That’s for sure. Though I think a gish aimed at being a frontline combatant (rather than a controller with better def) gets diminishing returns from higher spell prep.

No I think it is the other way around. You use your high level slots for false life, that is a TON of hit points at high level. Also you have Contingency for a 5th level false life whenever you need it.

Yes if you are using those slots for control you are not as good a front line combatant and there is an argument that is a better play overall, but if you are using those slots for False Life it beats what you are going to get with a few levels of Monk in most cases.

Most of the interesting gishy spells are levels 1-3, with rare gems at levels 4-5, and then it’s almost empty.

You are right, but you are not using higher level slots for control spells, you are using them mostly for false life, or in rare occasions for upcast Gishy spells like Tasha's Othwerwordly Guise.

For example, Fighter 1 or 2 + Bladesinger 19 or 18 might be pretty much optimal. 9th level spells, Action Surge, what else can you hope for?

You need 2 levels of Fighter for Action Surge and that would mean you get no epic boon. There are some levels this would be better, but it isn't better at most levels I don't think. Fighter 1 would give weapon masteries without action Surge and those are useful, but I would actually look at Ranger 1 instead so you don't lose the spell casting level.

But something we see less commonly on theorycraft threads, like EK7/BS13, or EK9/BS11, might be more interesting. You could have nearly as much spellcasting power (7th level prep, 8th level slot with the former, 6th/7th with the latter) while also getting 2 cantrips per AA, stronger Second Winds and other Fighter goodies. Is it more powerful? Depends, in a 5MWD campaign, I guess not. In a campaign with many encounters per day, maybe.

So are we talking a 20th level PC or a 1-20 campaign? The main problem with these builds is you need to forgo 7 Wizard levels to get 7 Fighter levels and those levels happen one at a time.

Assuming you race to Wizard 6 then you are comparing a Wizard 7 vs a Wizard 6/Fighter 1, then a Wizard 8 versus a Wizard 6/Fighter 2 and you are down a Feat at that point ...... Eventually you get to Wizard 6/Fighter 7 and I don't think that stacks up particularly well to a Wizard 13. You have the same number of feats because of the bonus 6th level feat, but you are down 2 4th, 2 5th, 1 6th and 1 7th level spell and your Arcane Recovery recovers 3 levels of spells versus 7 levels for the single class.

Then the very next level the Wizard gets Song of Victory and now the Bladesinger is making 2 attacks and 1 Cantrip every round after the first and getting an attack in even if they cast a leveled spell as an action.

So yeah a EK7/Bladesinger13 does get 2 Cantrips and an attack using an action, but remember a 14th level Bladesinger can get an attack as a Bonus action after casting a spell, so they can effectively get 3 attacks a round with one being a Cantrip after the first round. Yes getting 2 cantrips and one attack is 3d6 more damage than 2 attacks and one Cantrip at 20th level, but it is not a lot more damage and it is a lot of spell slots you are losing.

Also a 17th level a Wizard gets Wish, which means they can cast any spell of 8th level or below as an action, one of which is Power Word Fortify. Alternatively you can use a bonus action, typically on the second round of combat, to cast Blade of Disaster. Now you are making an attack, a Cantrip and two more attacks doing 10d6 each and these land the round you cast it instead of waiting for CME. Additionally with Song of Defense available you are far more likely to maintain your concentration.

Translating these ideas back to the Monk… if you did something like Monk 10 / BS 10, or Monk 10 / BS 8 / Fighter 2, you might have something quite interesting gameplay-wise. 3 attacks per FoB (with plenty of Focus Points to fuel it), Patient Defense that grants you 2d8 THP, but also CME, Extra Attack with cantrip, even Nick if you swing that way. That could add up to 6 attacks per round, on par with an EK 20 (who also gets no more than 4th level slots). With the Monk WotMA subclass coming in Arcana Unleashed in the Fall this type of Monky gish build could become super interesting (i.e., they might be able to get 6th or even 7th level slots thanks to WotMA’s 1/3rd spellcasting). Not necessarily the most powerful, of course, but I suspect not too shabby either (MADness aside).

BS10/Monk10 has no Epic Boon, so I would rule that one out as bieng a competitive build.I agree a M10/BS8/F2 would be interesting and cool, it would not be nearly as powerful IMO.

I would not call CME a good Gish spell. It is not very effective in that style of play IME, in large part because it takes an action to cast. To put this in perspective, with Action Surge on the M10/BS8/F2 you get 7 attacks on the second round of combat (or 8 with nick) after you go into Bladesong and cast CME on the first round (or alternatively 2 attacks on the first round and 5 on the second round). Often at that level though you will not hang on to CME until your second round.

A better example is Steel Wind Strike a 20th level Wizard can cast this three times in a row using their 5th level slots, getting 5 attacks for 6d10 every time they cast it and getting a weapon attack as a bonus action and they still have all their 6+ level slots. So 3 rounds into combat they are in bladesong, made 2 weapon attacks as a bonus action and made up to 15 more attacks doing 6d10 each (90d10 total+2 weapon attacks). 3 rounds into combat, after using action surge and 2 focus points the multiclass is in Bladesong and has made 6 unarmed strikes, 3 attacks and 3 Cantrips while adding 24d8 CME damage to those if they held on to Concentration that whole time.

M10/BS8/F2 would get a Boon at Wizard 8 if they took it at level 19 or 20. This PC only has 3 other Feats though, compared to 4 other feats for a single class Wizard and it maxes out with 4th level spells and only 2 of them (3 with Arcane Recovery). After Bladesong you are getting 1 Cantrip, 1 weapon Attack and 3 unarmed strikes a turn with FOB as long as they have focus points. A single class Bladesinger using the same action economy is getting 2 weapon attacks and 1 Cantrip with the same action economy without using any resources.

 

[Silam]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I’ll do a more in-depth response later but first I want to zoom in on this, which I’ve been pondering about:

Then the very next level the Wizard gets Song of Victory and now the Bladesinger is making 2 attacks and 1 Cantrip every round after the first and getting an attack in even if they cast a leveled spell as an action.

The latest version of Song of Victory says:

After you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can make one attack with a weapon as a Bonus Action.

So does it trigger from the cantrip you can substitute for one of the attacks in your Attack Action? From your post, it seems you think it does. To me, the RAW are unclear…

On one hand, you have cast a cantrip which says it has an Action casting time in its spell description, so that would trigger it. But on the other hand, you did not actually use an Action to cast it …

If it works in conjunction with the Extra Attack feature, then it would work in other cases as well, such with the War Caster’s ability to do a spell with an Action casting time as part of an Opp Attack (assuming the OA happened earlier during the round, prior to the Bladesinger’s turn).

I don’t see a balance a problem if Song of Victory interacts with WC as well as EA, but it just sounds a bit iffy as far as the RAW go.

What is in favor of the more generous interpretation (that it works) is that this BA weapon attack is superior to a basic TWF attack, since it requires no fighting style to get its mod to damage… and that is inline with the traditional lore that Bladesingers should be deadly swordfighters with one single-handed weapon and the other hand empty. The fact that people play bladesingers with TWF in 5e is a bit of an aberration, but I digress.

 

[ECMO3]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I’ll do a more in-depth response later but first I want to zoom in on this, which I’ve been pondering about:



The latest version of Song of Victory says:



So does it trigger from the cantrip you can substitute for one of the attacks in your Attack Action? From your post, it seems you think it does. To me, the RAW are unclear…

I think so, because it does not specify the type of action. The extra attack feature uses the same wording: " you can cast one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks"

It is the same wording both places, that to me says the casting time is specific to the spell in my reading, not the type of action you are using.

It would be a different story, If SOV said "After you use a magic action to cast a spell, you can make one attack with a weapon as a Bonus Action." but it is pretty clear from the wording it is talking about the spell you cast, not the type of action.

On one hand, you have cast a cantrip which says it has an Action casting time in its spell description, so that would trigger it. But on the other hand, you did not actually use an Action to cast it …

You did use an action to cast it, specifically the attack action, you just did not use the MAGIC Action.

Moreover though the casting time is a trait of the spell, I would say this works even if you used a Reaction to cast it some how like with a Warcaster AOO or a Ready Action that happens on your turn. That is obviously a corner case that is not going to come up often.

I don’t see a balance a problem if Song of Victory interacts with WC as well as EA, but it just sounds a bit iffy as far as the RAW go.

Due to the wording I am pretty confident it is RAI as it would actually be easier to word it so it would not work if they wanted to.

Also if we are to interpret "casting time of an action" RAW as prescriptive of actually using the Magic Action to cast the spell, this would create a viscous circle and make the extra attack feature unusable - I can cast a spell with a "casting time of an action" as part of extra attack ..... but if I do that the spell not have a "casting time of an action" any more .... so then if the spell does not have a "casting time of an action" I can't cast it with the extra attack feature.