D&D 5E (2024) Best Arcane Caster. Sorcerer VsWizard. Dungeon Dudes: Sorcerer "Won"

[Zardnaar]

So a while ago I said the Wizard comparatively sucks vs the Sorcerer let alone other casters. Bit more context this statement was mostly about the PHB stuff and at levels where the game is actually played (3-7 or 3-10, video goes with 3-13).


Long video from the Dungeon Dudes arguing something similar.SI made my general statements and the fireball is over rated comments (unless you're a Dragon Sorcerer) AU has come out and we have had some more time to digest Heroes of Faerun as well.

Video Recap
Sorcerer key advantages

Better saves, skills, class features early on, metamagic (Sorcerers better at control and/or blasting generally). Proficient in con saves and ability to have advantage on saves via extended spells essentially makes warcaster somewhat optional.

Wizards
Summons, rituals, spell list (especially high tier)

Video breaks some assumptions down.

1. Key levels are 3-13, not 13+. These levels are peak sorcerer vs wizard. Peak wizard is 11-16.

2. Extra spells are DM, campaign and adventure dependent. Basically scrolls for sale/found. Rituals are also often situational. Wizards better in 1 pillar (exploration), Sorcerer wins in the other 2 (Social and combat).[

3. Versatility is over rated. More D&D design leads on towards the best options. Sorcerers can brute force their way through problems assuming the Wizard actually has the magic bullet.

4. Wizard extra spells. Half are crap anyway and a good chunk of what is left are situational. See point 5.

5. You can only concentrate on 1 spell at a time. This means the wizards spell list actually isn't that great. The best wizard spell is being compared with the best Sorcerer spell with metamagic. If the best spell is shared the Sorcerer wins.

6. There is around 12 spells in the game that allow one to brute force your way through a lot of things. Sorcerer has access to all of them via feat or whatever. Most are Sorcerer class spells as well. See point 5. Even wall of forces isn't exclusive and even if a Sorcerer doesn't aquire its now WoF vs whatever 5th level spell metamagiced is. Even if WoF wins that one its not an all of the time thing and the Sorcerer is far from useless.

Those were the main points of the video. A damning comment made in the video was unless you're playing a Bladesinger, Conjurer, Necromancer you're probably gonna suffer comparatively. Note none of them are a PHB wizard. I would agree they're the best wizard subclasses. Comment was also made the Wizard is better for newer players as its generally less complex. A good sorcerer player needs to be able to identify the good metamagics that match the subclass and build around it, how and when to apply it and pick good spells. Wizard only has to pick decent spells (B tier+).

My games do hit level 9+ regularly usually 11ish can be 13. This is exceeding most games it seems.

Note video did define real games level 3-13. If you're parachuting into a level 11-13+ game different assumptions would be made. I don't think its to controverisal to say few games hit those levels and even if you do you probably won't hit 20 and either way its a long time to wait to "get good". Level 13 is around a year at my table (35 sessions approx).

I'm not sure the Sorcerer is the best caster either lvl 1-12 (probably the cleric tbh).

 

[tombowings]

This doesn't track with my experience. Sorcerers are only useful when the adventures are predictable and heavily combat-based. They just don't have enough spells known (at the levels I play) to don't do well in:

• Infiltration / Heists
• Wilderness exploration
• Trapped rooms
• Recalling knowledge (a big part of my games; knowledge = king)
• Chases
• Strings of many small combat encounters

All of these are common in my games.

Even in high risk negotiations, they are are volatile without expertise. When it matters, they can't be relied on. As often as they don't, sorcerers land the party is worse trouble (which can be fun).

Wizards, by comparison, can prep for the day. Clever wizards will spend time stealing spell books from NPCs to increase their versatility.

I've also been told my table is atypical. Maybe it is. I don't really care. All tables should be atypical. Make the game your own. Conformity is death. Live life; don't simply take up space.

 

[tetrasodium]

So a while ago I said the Wizard comparatively sucks vs the Sorcerer let alone other casters. Bit more context this statement was mostly about the PHB stuff and at levels where the game is actually played (3-7 or 3-10, video goes with 3-13).


Long video from the Dongeon Dudes arguing something similar. SI made my general statements and the fireball is over rated comments (unless you're a Dragon Sorcerer) AU has come out and we have had some more time to digest Heroes of Faerun as well.

Video Recap
Sorcerer key advantages

Better saves, skills, class features early on, metamagic (Sorcerers better at control and/or blasting generally). Proficient in con saves and ability to have advantage on saves via extended spells essentially makes warcaster somewhat optional.

Wizards
Summons, rituals, spell list (especially high tier)

Video breaks some assumptions down.

1. Key levels are 3-13, not 13+. These levels are peak sorcerer vs wizard. Peak wizard is 11-16.

2. Extra spells are DM, campaign and adventure dependent. Basically scrolls for sale/found. Rituals are also often situational. Wizards better in 1 pillar (exploration), Sorcerer wins in the other 2 (Social and combat).[

3. Versatility is over rated. More D&D design leads on towards the best options. Sorcerers can brute force their way through problems assuming the Wizard actually has the magic bullet.

4. Wizard extra spells. Half are crap anyway and a good chunk of what is left are situational. See point 5.

5. You can only concentrate on 1 spell at a time. This means the wizards spell list actually isn't that great. The best wizard spell is being compared with the best Sorcerer spell with metamagic. If the best spell is shared the Sorcerer wins.

6. There is around 12 spells in the game that allow one to brute force your way through a lot of things. Sorcerer has access to all of them via feat or whatever. Most are Sorcerer class spells as well. See point 5. Even wall of forces isn't exclusive and even if a Sorcerer doesn't aquire its now WoF vs whatever 5th level spell metamagiced is. Even if WoF wins that one its not an all of the time thing and the Sorcerer is far from useless.

Those were the main points of the video. A damning comment made in the video was unless you're playing a Bladesinger, Conjurer, Necromancer you're probably gonna suffer comparatively. Note none of them are a PHB wizard. I would agree they're the best wizard subclasses. Comment was also made the Wizard is better for newer players as its generally less complex. A good sorcerer player needs to be able to identify the good metamagics that match the subclass and build around it, how and when to apply it and pick good spells. Wizard only has to pick decent spells (B tier+).

My games do hit level 9+ regularly usually 11ish can be 13. This is exceeding most games it seems.

Note video did define real games level 3-13. If you're parachuting into a level 11-13+ game different assumptions would be made. I don't think its to controverisal to say few games hit those levels and even if you do you probably won't hit 20 and either way its a long time to wait to "get good". Level 13 is around a year at my table (35 sessions approx).

I'm not sure the Sorcerer is the best caster either lvl 1-12 (probably the cleric tbh).

Good video & it's nice seeing this incredibly obvious shift getting more attention between wotc looking for yet another sorcerer subclass. This 100% aligns with my experience and I'd say that with regards to level 13+ sorcerer still easily maintains the lead by maintaining to dip a single level or two into warlock for a level 13+ (1d10+CHA)*3 plus the other warlock boons.

The video touches on it but I'll expand on an annoyance of mine. Doing away with
knowledge: Arcana, knowledge: Architecture, Knowledge: Dungeoneering, Knowledge: Geography, knowledge: History, knowledge: Local, knowledge: Nature, knowledge: Nobility, knowledge: Religion, knowledge: The Planes as discrete skills that were all keyed to int removes the "lets ask the wizard"->"well I [may or may not] be particularly skilled in that, but I kinda know [more than/just] enough to be dangerous & get a little like bob the [other non-int class with the skill]". with everyone having the same number of skills & so many of those merged or turned into narrative "I'm a $class so should automatically know it" though deletion that loss just gets amplified. That's especially frustrating as a GM because it means that instead of "I invested in $otherSkills and only know a little to justify more adventure" it becomes "The GM simply decided that bob the $class doesn't know it so who cares"

Two additional areas I'd say hits the wizard hard is the massive hit to slot progression that 5e inflicts over 2e & 3.x progression numbers, that gets amplified by 5e's shift from vancian prep to neovancian prep. Rather than being able to fill out all those slots with edge case niche spells as the wizard advanced they are robbed of their ability to actually have decent odds of occasionally having a relevant niche spell prepared when the niche comes up while the sorcerer has virtually complete & total access to the wizard spells that matter session after session. The video kinda touches on this when it's talking about how both classes have the same number of prepared spells but sorcerer adds subclass bonus spells on top but I felt like elaborating was good. Even areas where the wizard has access to multiple similar spells the historical reasons like SR & relevant elemental resistances or whatever is largely removed from the game to be replaced with the medium encounter favoring the sorcerer

The spell list overlap attention around the 44min mark was a very bright spotlight, that alone should justify a UA spell list revamp to help fix the fact that sorcerer was someone's favorite class at wotc & it got a dating the GM level of assistance to the class itself there. It creates a situation where the sorcerer has more spells known between chosen & free subclass bonus spells and they can afford to grab all of the S/A+ tier spells the wizard had to be picky about due to picking up niche spels.

Spoiler: said overlap

Firebolt, Mind Sliver, Ray of Frost, Truestrike
Shield, Magic Missile, Chromastic Orb, Detect Magic, Sleep
Misty Step, Web, Invisibility, Suggestion, Mirror Image, Suggestion
Banishment, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, wall of fire
Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand, Hold Monster, synaptic static, telekinesis, wall of stone
Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, globe of invulnerability, Mass Suggestiom, Sunbeam
Teleport, Planeshift, Reverse Gravity, Finger of death
Dominate Monster, Power Word Stun, Sunburst, Demiplane
Wish, Meteor Storm, Timestop, Gate, Power Word Kill

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It depends on what type of game you play. In a combat-heavy game sorcerers win out, as they should. But in regular play, the wizard has Detect Magic, Identify, Comprehend Languages, and all those other practical things you don’t miss until you realise no one in the party has them.

As for skills, the sorcerer competes with bards, paladins and warlocks for the role of party face. Whereas the wizard is the only intelligent guy in the room.

 

[TerraDave]

Sorcerers were massively upgraded, wizards were not.

Sorcerers also can cast rituals, the very flexibility of their attack spells means that they don't need that many of them.

I do agree that their Int focus is an under appreciated advantage of the wizard. But the real issue with the 5.5 sorcerer is complexity creep, and all the re-rolling, so much re-rolling.

 

[tetrasodium]

It depends on what type of game you play. In a combat-heavy game sorcerers win out, as they should. But in regular play, the wizard has Detect Magic, Identify, Comprehend Languages, and all those other practical things you don’t miss until you realise no one in the party has them.

As for skills, the sorcerer competes with bards, paladins and warlocks for the role of party face. Whereas the wizard is the only intelligent guy in the room.

Read the PHB rules maybe?

Perhaps start with PHB232 where you find this:

Spoiler: IDENTIFYING A MAGIC ITEM

Some magic items are indistinguishable from their
nonmagical counterparts, while others are conspic-
uously magical. Handling a magic item is enough to
give you a sense that it is extraordinary, but learn-
ing a magic item's properties isn't automatic.
The Identify spell is the fastest way to reveal an
item's properties. Alternatively, you can focus on
one magic item during a Short Rest while being in
physical contact with the item. At the end of the
rest, you learn its properties and how to use them
(but not any curse the item might bear).
Sometimes a magic item carries a clue to its prop-
erties. The command word to activate a ring might
be etched inside the band, or a feathered design
might hint that it's a Ring of Feather· Falling.
Wearing or experimenting with an item can also
offer hints about its properties. In the specific case
of Potions, a little taste is enough to tell the taster
what a potion does. Other items might require
more experimentation. For example, if your char-
acter puts on a Ring of Swimming, the OM might say,
"Your movement feels strangely fluid." Perhaps you
then dive into a river to see what happens. The OM
would then say you swim unexpectedly well.

Also through languages being paired down & merged while removing clauses like 3.5 phb12's "Select your character’s bonus languages (if any) from the list found in his or her race’s description later in this chapter. " in favor of allowing PCs from any race to choose languages they expect to be relevant to a campaign first it drastically reduces the value of already ultra niche spells like comprehend languages.

All of those fall under the edge cases that don't really come up often enough or in important enough scenarios for them to even be memorable. On top of all that, people aren't using comprehend languages to communicate with an important NPC class/hireling sage or whatever either because those too are gone from the game and PCs don't actually need anything beyond mundane gear & a magic weapon.

Blaming the gm for not fixing a class by (re)designing the campaign around something wotc themselves seem to have no interest in even talking about is hardly a reasonable defense for what was published (twice for the most part) when 5.5 dialed up on years of little steps heaped upon the already existing problem from the prior years... Especially when the rules themselves undercut the hypot strengths you are trying to spotlight

 

[sevenbastard]

But the real issue with the 5.5 sorcerer is complexity creep, and all the re-rolling, so much re-rolling.

Yeah even when played by a focused competent player a sorcerer turn can drag. Especially on Roll20 where you have to check boxes and search through options. If you have a indecisive player who doesnt know the rules that well turns can be brutally long.

In another post I commented that in my roll20 game currently I have an ability that lets me reroll damage on a 1, but most of the time I skip it to keep the game flowing and not drag out my turn.

 

[FrogReaver]

So a while ago I said the Wizard comparatively sucks vs the Sorcerer let alone other casters. Bit more context this statement was mostly about the PHB stuff and at levels where the game is actually played (3-7 or 3-10, video goes with 3-13).


Long video from the Dungeon Dudes arguing something similar.SI made my general statements and the fireball is over rated comments (unless you're a Dragon Sorcerer) AU has come out and we have had some more time to digest Heroes of Faerun as well.

Video Recap
Sorcerer key advantages

Better saves, skills, class features early on, metamagic (Sorcerers better at control and/or blasting generally). Proficient in con saves and ability to have advantage on saves via extended spells essentially makes warcaster somewhat optional.

Wizards
Summons, rituals, spell list (especially high tier)

Video breaks some assumptions down.

1. Key levels are 3-13, not 13+. These levels are peak sorcerer vs wizard. Peak wizard is 11-16.

2. Extra spells are DM, campaign and adventure dependent. Basically scrolls for sale/found. Rituals are also often situational. Wizards better in 1 pillar (exploration), Sorcerer wins in the other 2 (Social and combat).[

3. Versatility is over rated. More D&D design leads on towards the best options. Sorcerers can brute force their way through problems assuming the Wizard actually has the magic bullet.

4. Wizard extra spells. Half are crap anyway and a good chunk of what is left are situational. See point 5.

5. You can only concentrate on 1 spell at a time. This means the wizards spell list actually isn't that great. The best wizard spell is being compared with the best Sorcerer spell with metamagic. If the best spell is shared the Sorcerer wins.

6. There is around 12 spells in the game that allow one to brute force your way through a lot of things. Sorcerer has access to all of them via feat or whatever. Most are Sorcerer class spells as well. See point 5. Even wall of forces isn't exclusive and even if a Sorcerer doesn't aquire its now WoF vs whatever 5th level spell metamagiced is. Even if WoF wins that one its not an all of the time thing and the Sorcerer is far from useless.

Those were the main points of the video. A damning comment made in the video was unless you're playing a Bladesinger, Conjurer, Necromancer you're probably gonna suffer comparatively. Note none of them are a PHB wizard. I would agree they're the best wizard subclasses. Comment was also made the Wizard is better for newer players as its generally less complex. A good sorcerer player needs to be able to identify the good metamagics that match the subclass and build around it, how and when to apply it and pick good spells. Wizard only has to pick decent spells (B tier+).

My games do hit level 9+ regularly usually 11ish can be 13. This is exceeding most games it seems.

Note video did define real games level 3-13. If you're parachuting into a level 11-13+ game different assumptions would be made. I don't think its to controverisal to say few games hit those levels and even if you do you probably won't hit 20 and either way its a long time to wait to "get good". Level 13 is around a year at my table (35 sessions approx).

I'm not sure the Sorcerer is the best caster either lvl 1-12 (probably the cleric tbh).

I feel like metamagic is treated incorrectly in these comparisons. Even though caster may only know 2 metamagics it’s treated as if they have all of them simultaneously and as if they don’t cost sorcery points.

• On saves, wisdom is just as good as con. Arguably better at times.
• On rituals, find famil
• On spells not innate to a class list, these generally take race or background to acquire - meaning the wizard can take other ones if taking the same feats/races.
• Sorcerers aren’t that great at social. Potentially a +3/4 bonus vs a +1/2 - for most the game. And that’s assuming no other charisma focused classes.

IMO if scouting ahead and exploration really matters then give me a wizard any day. If individual encounter capability is what matters then give me a sorcerer.

 

[saviirkad]

Not all of their points are that relevant to my own play, but I get what they mean regardless.

For myself, I find the sorcerer to be the better class if one wants to play the fiction of a wizard, while the wizard is the better class if one wants to play the fiction of an apprentice. Though there have been third party subclasses that have changed that dynamic.

 

[FrogReaver]

This doesn't track with my experience. Sorcerers are only useful when the adventures are predictable and heavily combat-based. They just don't have enough spells known (at the levels I play) to don't do well in:

Don’t they have more spells prepared than wizards now when you count their subclass bonus spells?