D&D 5E (2024) Best Arcane Caster. Sorcerer VsWizard. Dungeon Dudes: Sorcerer "Won"

[Minigiant]

Psst.... all of those things to listed as things the GM "needs" to do for the wizard are due to rules choices like 5e's safe explosive & difficult to fail resting rules& the shift from vancian prep with the old slot progression to neovancian prep with unified slot progression. Coincidentally those 5e rules choices all favor the sorcerer by removing weaknesses & the need for difficult choices that would face the sorcerer while granting the wizard room for the wizard's capabilities to shine.

And it got better for sorcerers.

In 2014, a 3rd level Dragon Sorcerer has 4 spell prepared.

In 2014, a 3rd level Dragon Sorcerer has 6 spells prepared and Alter Self, Chromatic Orb, Command, and Dragon’s Breath automatically prepared.

Wizards didnt really get more bonus spells like that.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

What i am saying is that the Wizard's strength is the extra.

You need the DM to give you extra time to use the short rest rituals.
You need the DM to give downtime to utilize the campaign rituals
You need to DM to give you scrolls to learn niche rituals
You need the DM to heavily vary foes so that carrying multiple attack spells of different damage or save matters.

I'm not saying rituals and having more spells to swap, and full swap on short rest doesnt matter.

It is that WOTC heavily shifted 5.5e to be more combat based and made it less mechanical in exploration and social. They polled and know 99% of the time combat matters mechanicallh. But for classes like ranger, rogue, and paladin, they shifted exploration, downtime, and social to truly be optionally and have various weight.

The weakest of the sorcerer was tgat they didnt have the spells known to have all the must haves.

Monty says that the right spells are
Invisibility, Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment, Fireball, Polymorph, Dimensions Door, Fly

Now Sorcerers can get the space that. Get bonus spells, And have subclass and metamagic tricks.

So the question becomes "Is the D&D requiring Water Breathing to continue without giving you a scroll for it or at low enough level that you or whale caster isnt already preparing it?".

WOTC would not take out those class features and deemphasize exploration, downtime, and social mechanics without polled data saying that is safe.

Ok. A loootttt of assumption here. Not true for our games. My party had killed for a wizard that can cast water breathing at will...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And it got better for sorcerers.

In 2014, a 3rd level Dragon Sorcerer has 4 spell prepared.

In 2014, a 3rd level Dragon Sorcerer has 6 spells prepared and Alter Self, Chromatic Orb, Command, and Dragon’s Breath automatically prepared.

Wizards didnt really get more bonus spells like that.

Sorcerers in 5.0 were quite underpowered though.
Actually if it were me, I had buffed sorcerers differently. I had given them more metamagic instead of giving them more spells.

But if you think sorcerers are outclassing wizards, then your game is different than mine.

 

[Minigiant]

Ok. A loootttt of assumption here. Not true for our games. My party had killed for a wizard that can cast water breathing at will...

Im not saying thats every table.

This is what im saying.

5.0e was designed for 6-8 medium combat enounters or the equivalent with 1-3 short rests between long rests.

WOTC pull the humidity and learn that very few tables do this. The majority of tables have 1-3 combat encounters per long rest with one short rest..

So in 5.5e that adjust encounters for tables using 1-3 encounters.

So a 10th level sorverer went from having 10 Sorcery points over 6-8 fights
TO
So a 10th level sorverer went from having 15 Sorcery points over 1-3 fights
+50% more Sorcery points over -50% Sorcery points.

+200-500% more Sorcerer Points per Encounter at most tables.​

 

[Minigiant]

Sorcerers in 5.0 were quite underpowered though.
Actually if it were me, I had buffed sorcerers differently. I had given them more metamagic instead of giving them more spells.

But if you think sorcerers are outclassing wizards, then your game is different than mine.

Sorcerer were underpowered.

So 5.5e have them 50% more spells and sorcery points from level 5 on.

A 50% buff against their two weaknesses. Thats like giving a barbarian a 3rd attack.

5.5e Sorcerers aren't underpowered anymore.

 

[Zardnaar]

Im not saying thats every table.

This is what im saying.

5.0e was designed for 6-8 medium combat enounters or the equivalent with 1-3 short rests between long rests.

WOTC pull the humidity and learn that very few tables do this. The majority of tables have 1-3 combat encounters per long rest with one short rest..

So in 5.5e that adjust encounters for tables using 1-3 encounters.

So a 10th level sorverer went from having 10 Sorcery points over 6-8 fights
TO
So a 10th level sorverer went from having 15 Sorcery points over 1-3 fights
+50% more Sorcery points over -50% Sorcery points.

+200-500% more Sorcerer Points per Encounter at most tables.​

Unless youre picking 2 and 3 point metamagic before lvl 10 you can metamagic every spells except all your lvl 1s.

At lvl 7 you can do them as well.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So a while ago I said the Wizard comparatively sucks vs the Sorcerer let alone other casters. Bit more context this statement was mostly about the PHB stuff and at levels where the game is actually played (3-7 or 3-10, video goes with 3-13).


Long video from the Dungeon Dudes arguing something similar.SI made my general statements and the fireball is over rated comments (unless you're a Dragon Sorcerer) AU has come out and we have had some more time to digest Heroes of Faerun as well.

Video Recap
Sorcerer key advantages

Better saves, skills, class features early on, metamagic (Sorcerers better at control and/or blasting generally). Proficient in con saves and ability to have advantage on saves via extended spells essentially makes warcaster somewhat optional.

Wizards
Summons, rituals, spell list (especially high tier)

Video breaks some assumptions down.

1. Key levels are 3-13, not 13+. These levels are peak sorcerer vs wizard. Peak wizard is 11-16.

2. Extra spells are DM, campaign and adventure dependent. Basically scrolls for sale/found. Rituals are also often situational. Wizards better in 1 pillar (exploration), Sorcerer wins in the other 2 (Social and combat).[

3. Versatility is over rated. More D&D design leads on towards the best options. Sorcerers can brute force their way through problems assuming the Wizard actually has the magic bullet.

4. Wizard extra spells. Half are crap anyway and a good chunk of what is left are situational. See point 5.

5. You can only concentrate on 1 spell at a time. This means the wizards spell list actually isn't that great. The best wizard spell is being compared with the best Sorcerer spell with metamagic. If the best spell is shared the Sorcerer wins.

6. There is around 12 spells in the game that allow one to brute force your way through a lot of things. Sorcerer has access to all of them via feat or whatever. Most are Sorcerer class spells as well. See point 5. Even wall of forces isn't exclusive and even if a Sorcerer doesn't aquire its now WoF vs whatever 5th level spell metamagiced is. Even if WoF wins that one its not an all of the time thing and the Sorcerer is far from useless.

Those were the main points of the video. A damning comment made in the video was unless you're playing a Bladesinger, Conjurer, Necromancer you're probably gonna suffer comparatively. Note none of them are a PHB wizard. I would agree they're the best wizard subclasses. Comment was also made the Wizard is better for newer players as its generally less complex. A good sorcerer player needs to be able to identify the good metamagics that match the subclass and build around it, how and when to apply it and pick good spells. Wizard only has to pick decent spells (B tier+).

My games do hit level 9+ regularly usually 11ish can be 13. This is exceeding most games it seems.

Note video did define real games level 3-13. If you're parachuting into a level 11-13+ game different assumptions would be made. I don't think its to controverisal to say few games hit those levels and even if you do you probably won't hit 20 and either way its a long time to wait to "get good". Level 13 is around a year at my table (35 sessions approx).

I'm not sure the Sorcerer is the best caster either lvl 1-12 (probably the cleric tbh).

But isn't all of this white-room theory? The individual differences between campaigns will be enough to make the Wizard amazing and the Sorcerer suck, so all of this white-room theory cannot actually have any value whatsoever. Every conclusion you've drawn from this therefore has no merit.

Of course, you know I don't actually feel that way. I find analysis quite productive. I'm pointing this out because this type of argument is exactly the same as the kind of argument you've repeatedly dismissed from me and others. Why is this example somehow not at all ruined by the "white-room" (lack-of-a-)response?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sorcerer were underpowered.

So 5.5e have them 50% more spells and sorcery points from level 5 on.

A 50% buff against their two weaknesses. Thats like giving a barbarian a 3rd attack.

5.5e Sorcerers aren't underpowered anymore.

No. Never said that.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Im not saying thats every table.

This is what im saying.

5.0e was designed for 6-8 medium combat enounters or the equivalent with 1-3 short rests between long rests.

WOTC pull the humidity and learn that very few tables do this. The majority of tables have 1-3 combat encounters per long rest with one short rest..

So in 5.5e that adjust encounters for tables using 1-3 encounters.

So a 10th level sorverer went from having 10 Sorcery points over 6-8 fights
TO
So a 10th level sorverer went from having 15 Sorcery points over 1-3 fights
+50% more Sorcery points over -50% Sorcery points.

+200-500% more Sorcerer Points per Encounter at most tables.​

What do you want to tell me with that? Beside the point.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

But isn't all of this white-room theory? The individual differences between campaigns will be enough to make the Wizard amazing and the Sorcerer suck, so all of this white-room theory cannot actually have any value whatsoever. Every conclusion you've drawn from this therefore has no merit.

Of course, you know I don't actually feel that way. I find analysis quite productive. I'm pointing this out because this type of argument is exactly the same as the kind of argument you've repeatedly dismissed from me and others. Why is this example somehow not at all ruined by the "white-room" (lack-of-a-)response?

It is white room. And both character classes have different strengths. For combat encounters, sorcerers are top. The evoker can barely hold up with some alternate powers. In some subterfuge campaigns, sorcerers with sublte spell can do great tgings no wizard can do. But wizards also have powers that sorcerers do not have.

When we compare barbarian and fighter and monk there is also no clear winner.