D&D 5E (2024) Best Arcane Caster. Sorcerer VsWizard. Dungeon Dudes: Sorcerer "Won"

[Zardnaar]

I feel like metamagic is treated incorrectly in these comparisons. Even though caster may only know 2 metamagics it’s treated as if they have all of them simultaneously and as if they don’t cost sorcery points.

• On saves, wisdom is just as good as con. Arguably better at times.
• On rituals, find famil
• On spells not innate to a class list, these generally take race or background to acquire - meaning the wizard can take other ones if taking the same feats/races.
• Sorcerers aren’t that great at social. Potentially a +3/4 bonus vs a +1/2 - for most the game. And that’s assuming no other charisma focused classes.

IMO if scouting ahead and exploration really matters then give me a wizard any day. If individual encounter capability is what matters then give me a sorcerer.

Sorcerer will

I feel like metamagic is treated incorrectly in these comparisons. Even though caster may only know 2 metamagics it’s treated as if they have all of them simultaneously and as if they don’t cost sorcery points.

• On saves, wisdom is just as good as con. Arguably better at times.
• On rituals, find famil
• On spells not innate to a class list, these generally take race or background to acquire - meaning the wizard can take other ones if taking the same feats/races.
• Sorcerers aren’t that great at social. Potentially a +3/4 bonus vs a +1/2 - for most the game. And that’s assuming no other charisma focused classes.

IMO if scouting ahead and exploration really matters then give me a wizard any day. If individual encounter capability is what matters then give me a sorcerer.

Sorcerers generally have the metamagics they want though.

Blaster. Probably empier and energy substitution.

Control. Twin and maybe empower or empower


Summoning. Extend.

Extend let's you have two hour summons and you can extend your control spells as you can skip warcaster.

 

[Zardnaar]

But isn't all of this white-room theory? The individual differences between campaigns will be enough to make the Wizard amazing and the Sorcerer suck, so all of this white-room theory cannot actually have any value whatsoever. Every conclusion you've drawn from this therefore has no merit.

Of course, you know I don't actually feel that way. I find analysis quite productive. I'm pointing this out because this type of argument is exactly the same as the kind of argument you've repeatedly dismissed from me and others. Why is this example somehow not at all ruined by the "white-room" (lack-of-a-)response?

Because the data backs it up along with WotC adventure design.

Exploration is the neglected pillar, has been most of 5E.

Sorcerers are outright better at combat amd social.

The one pillar wizards are good at are also player, DM, campaign and possibly adventure dependent.

And even if the wizard loads up on rituals a lot are campaign dependent.

A few of us here have identified key spells. Eg a blaster only needs 2 spells really. A single target blaster needs around 2-4.

Control yoi really only need 3. Tashas or command and pick one from frar/slow/hypnotic pattern.

Video identifies 12 key spells. Sorcerers can get all of them and can metamagic them.

That's better than an S tier spell? A metamagic S tier spell. That and concentration mechanic negates the wizard advantages until lvl 13ish.

And most campaigns dont go anywhere near lvl 13 by the numbers.

 

[Minigiant]

Sorcerer will

Sorcerers generally have the metamagics they want though.

Blaster. Probably empier and energy substitution.

Control. Twin and maybe empower or empower


Summoning. Extend.

Extend let's you have two hour summons and you can extend your control spells as you can skip warcaster.

Sorcerers dont get most Summoning spells.

Summoning, Spellbook Rituals, Spell swaps, Prepared Spells and Spell Versatility are the main things Wizards have over Sorcerer.

Sorcerer has Brute Magic Force and Cantrips.

 

[Distracted DM]

In a game with 5e sorcerers, it's understandable why 5e wizards would feel uncompetitive.

Lots of thoughts come up with this:

1. Would it be better if sorcerer was a subclass of a general "mage" or wizard core class? Ofc this would have been the game where there are 4 or 5 core classes and everything else is a subclass. Sort of like if 5e had cleaved closer to AD&D with its class design.
2. Considering official published adventures' pacing, of course the sorcerer wins out.
3. So yeah, unless the DM is running a game that will allow for the pacing and scope for the wizard to excel, the sorcerer is the more optimal choice.
4. Why can anyone except wizards, and MAYBE clerics, ritual cast?
5. 5e has really gotten rid of Niche Protection, that's not news.

Anyway, is it a big deal? Probably mostly just for power gamers. But some non-power gamer people do consider how effective option A vs B would be, without it dictating the whole of the character choice.

 

[Minigiant]

Really you gotta think about different players and DMs.

.
Newbies: A newbie Wizard given the extra spell picks of a Wizard will take weaker additional spells. Especially since most Wizard subclasses are tied to Spell schools and a newbie Sorcerer might pick bad spells at first but they swap the junk out at level up and some choices are made by subclass.

Sorcerer wins

Veteran: A D&D veteran will know all the good spells and will take all the good ones with either Sorcerer or Wizard. But the extra spells Wizards have would be next tier down and not be better than the beefed up stuff 5.5e Sorcerer can do if the player isnt new.

Sorcerer wins

Themed: Heavily themed Sorcerers don't know enough of those top tier spells to beat a Heavily themed Wizard. And wizard subclasses buff Themed beter than Sorcerer.

Wizard wins

MinMaxing: Sorcerer win full stop on focusing on 1 or 2 things. Metamagic bosts individual spell focusing. Wizards can't really make numbers go up.

Sorcerer wins

Optimizer: Optimizer Players will pick the best secondary extra spells and know how to use and abuse rituals in the constraints of the DMs campaigns.

Wizard wins

Powergaming: The best Wizard beats the Best Sorcerer. And a powergamer can abuse rituals, secondary slots, and rituals more.

Wizard wins

Hack&Slash: Sorcerer are better are raw combat than Wizard. And if Downtime and Ritual time is minimized, Wizard cant keep up

Sorcerer wins

Balanced Campaign: A Wizard can adjust to actual 3 pillar campaign with variable rests, obstacles and enemies, better than a Sorcerer.

Wizard wins

Type	Winner
New Player	Sorcerer
Veteran	Sorcerer
Themed	Wizard
MinMaxer	Sorcerer
Optimizer	Wizard
Powergamer	Wizard
Hack & Slash	Sorcerer
Balanced	Wizard

 

[tombowings]

You need the DM to give you extra time to use the short rest rituals.
You need the DM to give downtime to utilize the campaign rituals
You need to DM to give you scrolls to learn niche rituals
You need the DM to heavily vary foes so that carrying multiple attack spells of different damage or save matters.

Hm...most of those are also in the wizard's hands - if the DM is doing his job.

The wizard is always free to ignore the DM's time limits and use rituals. Sure consequences might ensue, but the wizard can always choose to let them occur. (Personally, I find time limit dumb in most cases. They limit player action. I rarely use them to manipulate my players, and I wouldn't play with a DM who used them regularly.)

In dungeons, the wizard can retreat outside, barricade himself in a room, etc. Clever thinking can create time. (Assuming the DM isn't unreasonable, in which case, best to walk away anyway. Never play with bad/stubborn DMs.)

Wizards can take it into their own hands gather information about other wizards and steal their spellbooks. (Again, we're assuming the DM is worth his salt. Otherwise, leave anyway. Don't give bad DMs attention.)

The wizard can always choose which foes to fight. Different types and adventure sites contain different foes. Having multiple saves allows the wizard to specialize his arsenal to combat the foes at the adventure site he's chosen to explore. (If the DM is railroading you, leave. Don't put up with being a character int he DM's novel.)

 

[tombowings]

Because the data backs it up along with WotC adventure design.

None of that matter is you ignore it - as most DMs should. WotC doesn't know every individual tables. How can they be expected to craft adventures that perfectly suit their tastes?

Homebrew (when done well) is always the best brew. (And if you're DM sucks, leave - or, better yet, become the DM yourself!)

 

[Minigiant]

Hm...most of those are also in the wizard's hands - if the DM is doing his job.

The wizard is always free to ignore the DM's time limits and use rituals. Sure consequences might ensue, but the wizard can always choose to let them occur. (Personally, I find time limit dumb in most cases. They limit player action. I rarely use them to manipulate my players, and I wouldn't play with a DM who used them regularly.)

In dungeons, the wizard can retreat outside, barricade himself in a room, etc. Clever thinking can create time. (Assuming the DM isn't unreasonable, in which case, best to walk away anyway. Never play with bad/stubborn DMs.)

Wizards can take it into their own hands gather information about other wizards and steal their spellbooks. (Again, we're assuming the DM is worth his salt. Otherwise, leave anyway. Don't give bad DMs attention.)

The wizard can always choose which foes to fight. Different types and adventure sites contain different foes. Having multiple saves allows the wizard to specialize his arsenal to combat the foes at the adventure site he's chosen to explore. (If the DM is railroading you, leave. Don't put up with being a character int he DM's novel.)

Consequences only matter if you care about them.

If consequences are easily to brush off, it doesnt matter.

If the DM creates consequences and constaints and the Wizard player ignores them to do rituals, the wizards ability to use rituals is minimized

 

[tombowings]

If the DM creates consequences and constaints and the Wizard player ignores them to do rituals, the wizards ability to use rituals is minimized

Again, it depends on the specific of the campaign (as does everything). If the time limit is to prevent the dragon from destroying the city, but the wizard only really cares about looting the ruined palace, the time limit doesn't matter to that character, even through it might matter to others.

My only real experience is with player-driven games. In DM-focused games, the wizard is probably at a advantageous. But I don't run those types of games. So wizards tend to be much more useful.

 

[tombowings]

Themed: Heavily themed Sorcerers don't know enough of those top tier spells to beat a Heavily themed Wizard. And wizard subclasses buff Themed beter than Sorcerer.

This is only true if the wizard's theme fits neatly into a school of magic. If the theme is Fish or The Color Orange or Left Turns Only, the sorcerer probably works better because it more harshly limits the spells, and therefore focuses exclusively on the theme.